[p2p-research] controversy: GM foods and organic agriculture
Hervé Le Crosnier
herve at info.unicaen.fr
Mon May 25 18:32:13 CEST 2009
Please Michel,
Get me off the list.
As a long time anti-imperialist from France and
against my onw country, i can't bear such insults.
I have a position. May be someone get another one.
But not that wazy to talk about.
Not that sense of nationalism as we are building the
commons for a new age.
I try, even with my poor english writing to give
informations, analysis...
But i only harvest those kind of remarks.
Please get me off.
Hervé Le Crosnier
Ryan Lanham a écrit :
> The real imperialism (your word) was done a century and more ago. Let
> the British stop drinking tea for pennies a cup. Let's fix that first
> if we care about the people. I recommmend people in France stop buying
> cheap green beans from Senegal and people in Switzerland and Austria
> stop stealing cocoa and coffee from Africa before they preach on how
> farmers should operate there. The French have done endless evil in
> Africa. Fix that first.
>
> Ryan Lanham
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 8:35 AM, Hervé Le Crosnier
> <herve at info.unicaen.fr <mailto:herve at info.unicaen.fr>> wrote:
>
>
>
> Ryan Lanham a écrit :
> > I agree with your distinction, Michel. GMO is not bad. It is the
> > corporate system that markets it that appears evil.
> >
> > 200,000 people go blind in Africa each year from Vitamin A deficiency.
> > Almost 3000 die each DAY from hunger. I would prefer a system that
> > redresses these ills, and that also builds a post-colonial economic
> > system that takes people out of dependent poverty and the pitiful
> state
> > of sending fruits and vegetables north for cheap table goods while
> > suffering themselves.
> >
> > If GMO can do that, I am for it. I also am slightly suspect that the
> > anti-GMO crowd is really pro keep Africa and Asia down, crowd.
> >
>
> Hello Ryan,
>
> I am very sorry you answer this way to a list of references
> that i suppose you don't take time to read in between.
>
> So if you prefer believing than trying to understand,
> i will shut my mouth.
>
> Kevin Carson, in another post hit the real problem of
> agricultural techniques.
>
> Roberto Verzola also...
>
> Suman Sahai (India) explain how GM crops, who go with pest,
> are destructive of village life. Especially because what
> the industrial farmer call "bad seeds" is also the basic income
> for family life, for healing and feeding poultry. After
> harvesting, women go into the field to this activity.
>
> Is India in Asia ?
>
> But I'm alway be happy to have evidences of the success of
> GM crops (in fact there's no one GM crops producing
> Vitamine A in the fields... it's pie-in-the-sky projects,
> but i you prefer to believe marketing information than
> reality...)
>
> Remember also that a great majority of farmers even don't have
> access to animal traction in their fields... let's talk about
> GM crops as a way to save for hunger.....
>
> Give them hope, not opium, even GM opium.
>
> Hervé Le Crosnier. Stop talking now if it didn't help to have
> more than two lines of this sort when trying to give
> real information.
>
>
>
>
> > Ryan
> >
> > On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 11:58 PM, Michel Bauwens
> > <michelsub2004 at gmail.com <mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> <mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com <mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com>>>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Herve,
> >
> > Thanks for that, but don't forget that what is obvious for
> you, may
> > not be for Ryan, so these things still need to be argued.
> >
> > However, I just realized that neither you nor Roberto really
> > answered my argument, which is different from Ryan's.
> >
> > My point is: would it be different, if GMO where part of an open
> > commons, not part of corporate profitmaking. So if we assume open
> > and participative science, not under the control of privatizing
> > companies, would that make GMO different?
> >
> > Imagine for a moment Monsanto was not there, and GMO
> investigations
> > are practiced by farmer-scientists ... does that change anything?
> >
> > Michel
> >
> > On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 8:37 AM, Hervé Le Crosnier
> > <herve at info.unicaen.fr <mailto:herve at info.unicaen.fr>
> <mailto:herve at info.unicaen.fr <mailto:herve at info.unicaen.fr>>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Ryan Lanham a écrit :
> > > Professor,
> > >
> > > Care to comment? I've suggest GMO is a good thing for
> > Africa--a line
> > > I've been told many times by development economists. Maybe
> > you could
> > > give some pointers to "independent" studies. Is there an
> > honest middle
> > > party? How would one know an honest middle party?
> > >
> >
> > Dear Ray,
> >
> > You can't say things like this in a list devoted to
> > thinking the
> > process of changing society with a common-based
> approach.
> >
> > Let me say in three points :
> >
> > 1 - GMO and Africa
> > -------------------
> >
> > Have a look at the own Monsanto site to hear about
> > a buggy OGM created in the States, and whoput South
> African
> > Farmers on their knees.
> >
> > White Maize in South Africa
> >
> http://www.monsanto.com/monsanto_today/for_the_record/south_africa_gm_corn.asp
> >
> > They have to apologize after a vast movement of
> framers.
> >
> > Michel recently send and interview about massive
> farmers
> > suicide in India.
> >
> > Where do people get data to say GMO is good for Africa.
> > I will be very please to read such an article, if
> based on
> > data, not "pie-in-the-sky" for "future" GMO, that will
> > certainly never exists.
> >
> > Bayer, an european chimist is near to lauch the
> modified rice
> > LL62, which is built to resist the glufosinate weed
> killer.
> > Problem : this pesticide is to be ride off europe,
> considered
> > as too dangerous. But rice market is Asia, isn't
> it. And
> > so will it be of glufosinate market. (i only got french
> > reference for this)
> >
> > Please send us datas and articles to explain how
> one can
> > develop
> > a country with such a bio-imperialism over their heads.
> >
> > The IAASDT Group, a council of worldwide scientists, as
> > important for future of food production as the GIEC
> was for
> > asserting the global change, issued a real
> worldwide study
> > on april 2008. You can have an idea with the BBC
> article :
> >
> > Global food system 'must change'
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7347239.stm
> >
> > And the full report
> > http://www.agassessment.org/
> >
> > The future of food production, if we want everyone
> to have
> > food, is aimed at small farmers... the contrary of
> > the gmo-pesticides stanza... They are scientist, they
> > studied real situation, and they collectively make
> > proposals.
> >
> >
> > 2 - What does it mean to ask for "independant" studies
> > ------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Most studies that really get data against GMO are
> > independant.
> > They are not paid by agro-giants.
> >
> > When Ignacio Chapela, a scientist from Berkeley working
> > with communauties in Oaxaca find existance of maize-GMO
> > in the
> > very cradle of maize, in Mexico, he wonders. No indian
> > people never use GMO... but pollinisation is very
> hard to
> > predict.
> >
> > Do you think it's university was proud of this
> independant
> > research and findings published in the most
> influencials
> > scientific journals ? No they just put him apart,
> because
> > Monsanto was one of the funding partner of the agro-bio
> > university center.
> > The Sad Saga of Ignacio Chapela
> > http://www.theava.com/04/0218-chapela.html
> >
> > Where is independance in research when whole
> monopolistic
> > industries take hands on university ?
> >
> > 3 - the "middle party"
> > -----------------------
> >
> > Why have we to look for a "middle party" ? Is it
> science ?
> > No it's political negociation. Sometimes we need to
> > negociate.
> > But when it comes to science, we need assesment.
> >
> > Let's have a look at the diverses strategies used
> by the
> > tobacco industry to say that passive smoking don't
> matter,
> > even if scientific facts say it really.
> >
> > How the tobacco industry responded to an influential study of
> > the health
> > effects of secondhand smoke
> > http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/325/7377/1413
> >
> > It's in the leader British Medical Journal. Not an
> opinion,
> > a research.
> >
> > Let's have a look at strategies used by petrol
> monopolies
> > to negate global change only to go on with their
> profits.
> >
> > Scientists' Report Documents ExxonMobil’s Tobacco-like
> > Disinformation
> > Campaign on Global Warming Science
> >
> http://www.ucsusa.org/news/press_release/ExxonMobil-GlobalWarming-tobacco.html
> >
> > And we really can go on (for example with absestos,
> with the
> > new campaign from the platic industry against home
> bags,..)
> >
> > The GMO case will be based on the same process :
> > - a "scientist" (even not) say there's controversy.
> Don't
> > mind
> > the data, medias love controversies.
> > - if there's controversies, as the one about
> organic food
> > that
> > began this thread, so we're not sure, then let's
> go the one
> > that have the power to put us in front of their
> wills.
> >
> > Because, today, there are no democratic debate,
> neither about
> > usefullness, neither about dangerosity of GMO. The
> ones who
> > think they can dominate the world through
> domination of food
> > are putting their experimental buggy GMO on the
> fields !!!
> >
> > These are facts, reflexions based on studies of
> documents.
> > I have a lot more, and some in french too... It's not
> > opinion, even if I am not a biological scientist.
> > I'm a computer scientist, and trained with
> epistemology. So
> > i can use my reasonning schemes in other domains...
> if I take
> > the time to read, to inform, to be open for surprise.
> >
> > But with GMO, i was not surprized. I found a new
> > bio-imperialism playing with life on earth for their
> > miserable
> > profits.
> >
> > We have to take time to read, compare,
> understand... and
> > explain
> > what we have found, read, understand. Sometimes
> simpler than
> > the complex reports and articles we read. Because
> the future
> > on earth is at stake.
> >
> > Hervé Le Crosnier
> >
> > PS : sorry for my english writing. That's not my mother
> tongue,
> > and it's a lot longer to think and write in english. Keep
> this
> > in mind... it's not far away from the debate on the use of
> this
> > list. I can't read just a glance and send back to the minute
> > a two sentences reflexion. I always need to be sure I really
> > understand, and take time to content information.
> > That's real list governance, and collective individualism.
> > And understanding the multicultural approach is also good
> for this.
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> > --
> > Working at
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
> > http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
> > http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >
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