[p2p-research] further contribution by David Ronfeldt on p2p as successor system

Sat May 23 10:11:34 CEST 2009

Ok, Marc, I for one respect but regret your decision and will miss your
input.

There has been a decision by a voluntary moderator against what he saw as
disruption, and we proposed due process.

There has been a discussion against size limitations on this email list,
that cannot be an individual decision when it is challenged, and we proposed
a deliberative mechanism to arrive at a conclusion.

I do not see dictatorship here, just a group of people trying to get along.

No wisdom of crowds, but deliberation. It is legitimate that you don't want
to be part of it. Forking is also a standard part of community governance.

Michel

On 5/23/09, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The community is defined by its actions which are directly those of its
> members.
>
> As of now, it is a community that is supporting top down
> dictatorship/censorship.
>
> So you tell me if the community is legitimate right now?
>
> Deferring to a vote by the crowd on this issue does not make it right to me
> personally because it is based on the Wisdom of Crowds which is null and
> void in my view.
>
> So you're right, you guys keep YOUR list.
>
> Governance does not have to be this way.
>
> Experiment concluded.
>
> Enjoy YOUR community :)
>
> I love happy endings.
>
> Marc
>
>
> On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 12:55 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I suggested due process for 2 separate issues:
>>
>> 1) the moderation actions of Ryan which you feel to be unfair
>>
>> 2) the issue of sending limits on this email list
>>
>> Individuals exists and have rights
>>
>> Communities exists and have governance, good and bad, charismatic,
>> meritocratic, sovereign etc ...
>>
>> Due process is that attempts to bridge the individual and collective but
>> you have to be willing to play to game. If you want to participate in a
>> community, any community, there will always be either pre-existing rules,
>> rules that you create if you start a group of your own, or emerging rules in
>> case of conflict between individuals ..
>>
>> This requires that there is a community, i.e. a group of peope trying to
>> achieve something ... If you think the community itself is not legitimate,
>> the issue is not resolvable .. There is no way to resolve this without you
>> engaging with the other people, and if you do that, it's always better to
>> avoid too much antagonism as this create extreme reactions all over ...
>>
>> It doesn't have to be that way,
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>
>> On 5/23/09, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Michel,
>>>
>>> I said and I say it again very clearly, the community does not have to
>>> follow me. The community can set a filter within seconds to filter out my
>>> messages per each person's discretion, not by top down filtering by the
>>> admins.
>>>
>>> Due process is a phrase. What is the actual intent: to gang up against
>>> someone who does not want to agree to some arbitrary rule(s)?
>>>
>>> If that's the intent, which it seems it is because you keep saying that I
>>> want the community to follow my will which is absolutely not true and is
>>> invalid: I have said the members of the community can filter what they don't
>>> like, to avoid top down censorship which is what we have now.
>>>
>>> Is the due process to address errors committed by both sides (the admins
>>> and myself) or only to address errors committed by myself? Your tone seems
>>> to indicate the latter, which is to say that the due process is just a funny
>>> way of doing more wrong, not fixing the situation.
>>>
>>> You are accusing me of trying to bend the community to my will, which I
>>> have clearly stated to the opposite: I want the admins to stop acting like
>>> Cops and power trip, with or without the community's encouragement.
>>>
>>> So you tell me, what is the intent of the due process and is it applied
>>> to correcting the error in judgment committed by the admins or only the
>>> error I am being accused of by you and the admins?
>>>
>>> Anyway, I see where this is going, and it is very funny to be witnessing
>>> the unraveling of reason and the emergence of crowd behavior.
>>>
>>> Marc
>>>
>>> On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 12:32 AM, Michel Bauwens <
>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Marc,
>>>>
>>>> unless this is an earlier reaction ...
>>>>
>>>> we have proposed to set up a due process for this issue, there is not
>>>> more that can be done, since what you propose is a unilateral decision by
>>>> yourself and the community having to follow you, and I do not see things
>>>> happening?
>>>>
>>>> Noboby has nominated Ryan nor Kevin, they volunteered, and they have
>>>> earned the trust of most of us. The only thing which can avoid ego fights is
>>>> due process, which we are proposing to you.
>>>>
>>>> Is there any alternative?
>>>>
>>>> Michel
>>>>
>>>>   On 5/23/09, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The herd does not need to bow to my will. The herd can filter at their
>>>>> own discretion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why should I bow to the herd's demands if they don't work for me? I
>>>>> can't trim messages form my mobile phone and I want all replies in the same
>>>>> place for ease of comprehension. If My brain works differently then I get
>>>>> kicked out of the list? moderated out? I said I would agree to a logically
>>>>> motivated limit (not arbitrary as teh 100K limit we have now) based on what
>>>>> Google considers a normal length message.
>>>>>
>>>>> You and Ryan playing judge, jury and executioner by moderating me out
>>>>> is what is going on.
>>>>>
>>>>> My trust in Michel and P2P Foundation will be removed if the decision
>>>>> is not reversed.
>>>>>
>>>>> To Judge, Jury and Executioner who decided this: you have lost your
>>>>> moral standing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Enjoy YOUR list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Marc
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 11:22 PM, Kevin Carson <
>>>>> free.market.anticapitalist at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>   On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 4:20 PM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  > So because I don't accept the arbitrary message length rule (yet
>>>>>>  > accept the logical one based on Google limit) then you subjectively
>>>>>>  > call that abuse and moderate me out of the list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  > This wrongness will be exposed. That even in a forum advocating
>>>>>>  > openness and equality that someone would assume authority and
>>>>>> moderate
>>>>>>  > out an individual who disagreed with some arbitrary rule regarding
>>>>>>  > message length.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  > I'm sure Michel does NOT stand for this. If he does that would be
>>>>>> news
>>>>>>  > to me.
>>>>>>  > I can see thru you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not long ago, you dismissed requests to observe netiquette
>>>>>> (specifically to trim posts) as tantamount to expecting you to bow to
>>>>>> "the herd," and used a lot of pseudo-Nietzschean rhetoric about
>>>>>> unique, creative individuals being stifled by arbitrary rules.  And
>>>>>> you pointed out that any members of "the herd" who didn't like your
>>>>>> lack of consideration could simply filter out your emails.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But when the system started automatically bouncing your untrimmed
>>>>>> posts, you complained about it and demanded we adjust the list
>>>>>> settings--in other words, the unique, superior, creative individual
>>>>>> demanded that the herd bow to his convenience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, Charlie.  As you said of our taking the trouble to filter you,
>>>>>> if you don't like having your messages bounced you can start trimming
>>>>>> them.  Why should "the herd" bow to your will?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Kevin Carson
>>>>>> Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org
>>>>>> Mutualist Blog:  Free Market Anti-Capitalism
>>>>>> http://mutualist.blogspot.com
>>>>>> Studies in Mutualist Political Economy
>>>>>> http://www.mutualist.org/id47.html
>>>>>> Organization Theory:  A Libertarian Perspective
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/12/studies-in-anarchist-theory-of.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Marc Fawzi
>>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>>>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>  Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>
>>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>>>
>>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>>>
>>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Marc Fawzi
>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>
>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>
>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Marc Fawzi
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>

-- 
Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
http://p2pfoundation.ning.com

Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens

The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
http://www.shiftn.com/
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