[p2p-research] further contribution by David Ronfeldt on p2p as successor system

Fri May 22 21:00:10 CEST 2009

No, and that's a very judgmental response Ryan.

See my response to David.

On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 11:58 AM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:

> In other words, you are willing to defecate on the commons until someone
> throws you out, because your defecation does not offend you.
>
> Not very P2P as I understand it.
>
> Ryan
>
>
> On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 1:53 PM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Michel,
>>
>> It is possible that I never join the community (as in subscribe to its
>> norms and rules) but still be in communal relationship to it! Tha's the
>> position I've taken.
>>
>> So when the community decides that they ban such a fiercely independent
>> individual then that is the community choice, not mine as I'm happy with an
>> unconditional form of communal sharing :)
>>
>> Marc
>>
>>
>> On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 10:25 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Marc,
>>>
>>> there is never going to be any community without norms, that would be a
>>> contradiction in terms
>>>
>>> and every community you join, except in the very starting phases if you
>>> are a co-creator of them, is always already going to have these norms
>>>
>>> so the questions become, are they modifiable and under what conditions,
>>> and is this acceptable to you?
>>>
>>> if not, you create another one or fork an existing one
>>>
>>> the good thing is that such exist is always possible, and this freedom of
>>> peer production is unique, as other institutions are usually coercive,
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 10:40 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes, but, let me challenge you and everyone else in my freely
>>>> contributing way:
>>>>
>>>> What if the individual does not want to join the community but is
>>>> otherwise a well meaning, good doing individual...?  What if I see myself
>>>> not belonging to this community but just acting in the same virtual space
>>>> it's in as well as in other spaces, and making my own rules, changing them,
>>>> evolving my own morality and rationality based on my own experiences.
>>>>
>>>> What if I don't accept the meta? What if I do not subscribe to the
>>>> common agreements of this community?
>>>>
>>>> I am freely contributing but what kind of relationship do I have to the
>>>> community? CS would sound right, but it's CS without acceptance of any rules
>>>> by the community, i.e. Unconditional CS or UCS since CS tends to involve
>>>> conditions/rules (such as the message length that was enforced today despite
>>>> that it is inconvenient for me.. and in this case prevents me from
>>>> participating because it is an enforced rule that I cannot bypass)
>>>>
>>>> Is Unconditional CS covered by David's model?
>>>>
>>>> Marc
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 8:32 PM, Michel Bauwens <
>>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It is the freely contributing individual which aggregates into peer
>>>>> producing communities, I don't think there is a need to repeat this,
>>>>> especially in this community which is well aware of the context of our
>>>>> debates,
>>>>>
>>>>> Michel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 9:55 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> <<
>>>>>> Also, I use the partner state rather than the nexus state, I have to
>>>>>> reread what you mean by that. But the partner state is a neutral arbiter
>>>>>> between the 3 modes (centralizing governance, decentralized markets,
>>>>>> distributed peer production by civil society based communities) and 'enables
>>>>>> and empowers the direct production of social value.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't see a mention of the individual.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The individual in the model above has been replaced with a faceless
>>>>>> 'peer' as a new word for cog in the wheel (of a civil society based
>>>>>> community)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 7:18 PM, Michel Bauwens <
>>>>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Interesting challenge:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (
>>>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/david-ronfeldts-timn-and-the-four-forms-of-governance/2009/05/20
>>>>>>> )
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <a few additional points:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the TIMN forms (not to mention fiske’s forms as well) have existed,
>>>>>>> spread throughout life, since ancient times. but they have arisen and
>>>>>>> matured at different rates, in different eras (for reasons discussed
>>>>>>> elsewhere). and as each form has arisen, a new realm or system of activity
>>>>>>> has take shape around it: e.g., the rise of +I leads to development of the
>>>>>>> state and associated politics as a major realm, even though hierarchical
>>>>>>> institutions show up elsewhere in society too (like business companies).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> these and other dynamics about the rise of earlier forms and their
>>>>>>> realms have implications for projecting what +N will do, and i think also
>>>>>>> for P2P. most important, its rise must end up defining a new realm, at least
>>>>>>> the core of that realm. if it does not do so, it cannot gain its fullest
>>>>>>> philosophical and doctrinal import. (maybe that’s the limitation of fiske’s
>>>>>>> EM form; it’s about a set of fairness principles and behaviors that are so
>>>>>>> widely distributed they cannot define a single realm, unlike his CS or AR.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> thus a challenge for me, and i believe you as well, as we try to look
>>>>>>> ahead, is to figure out exactly what philosophical and doctrinal principles
>>>>>>> are so embedded in +N, and/or P2P, that a new realm emerges, a realm that is
>>>>>>> different from the prevailing ones. another way to ask is, what aren’t
>>>>>>> advanced societies getting done using existing forms that they could get
>>>>>>> done using a new form>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Michel's reply: That's a very good question David. I do believe that
>>>>>>> the combination of the 3 paradigms, open and free, participation, and
>>>>>>> commons orientation, are these values, augmented with the additional ones
>>>>>>> like non-credentialism, and with equipotentiality  as its metaphysical core
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your very last question points to the importance of the mode of
>>>>>>> production, and my intuition is that it has to do with the handling of
>>>>>>> complexity, which hierarchy can handle, and with the survival of the
>>>>>>> biosphere, which the market can't handle. For example, the dilemma of
>>>>>>> man-hours in software projects (more staff slows down the project), does not
>>>>>>> seem to work in the peer production mode, thus has been effectively solved
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <asking that about +N or P2P when their rise is still new right now
>>>>>>> in the 21st century is a bit like asking, back in say the 16th or 17th
>>>>>>> century, how +M (the rise of markets) would affect societies. who could
>>>>>>> foretell +M would not only reshape their economies but also enable the
>>>>>>> spread of market principles into politics, resulting in liberal
>>>>>>> democracies?!>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Michel's reply: yes that is true, but at the same time, patterns have
>>>>>>> been emerging and have been  identified, not enough for a full picture, but
>>>>>>> enough to give us already some clear ideas about certain aspects.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <even though it’s early and it’s dim, my thinking is that the answer
>>>>>>> will take shape around some civil-society activity that will better address
>>>>>>> social equity or public-goods matters. a new realm will emerge around that.
>>>>>>> at the same time, +N will affect the other realms. it will give rise to what
>>>>>>> i call the nexus state as a successor to the nation state, but it will still
>>>>>>> have hierarchy at its core. there will also be some new modes of economic
>>>>>>> production, but that won’t be the key, since +M markets will endure at the
>>>>>>> core>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's where we differ. I believe the core value production will be
>>>>>>> outside the market, with the non-capitalist markets (they can't be
>>>>>>> capitalist since that destroys the biosphere) a derivative mode for the
>>>>>>> production and allocation of scarce goods. But open design is primary to the
>>>>>>> production which occurs afterward, and every open design commons will have a
>>>>>>> multitude of market players around it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, I use the partner state rather than the nexus state, I have to
>>>>>>> reread what you mean by that. But the partner state is a neutral arbiter
>>>>>>> between the 3 modes (centralizing governance, decentralized markets,
>>>>>>> distributed peer production by civil society based communities) and 'enables
>>>>>>> and empowers the direct production of social value.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <if this line of thinking is on track, one possible implication here
>>>>>>> is, don’t hang the future of P2P too much on new modes of production. look
>>>>>>> for something else as a central emphasis>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> well, I see it as a combination of things, but I think the
>>>>>>> hyperproductivity of the mode of production is key as well: better mode of
>>>>>>> production, better mode of governance, more inclusive form of property
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I really think we should meet live and trash out some of these
>>>>>>> issues.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>>>>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>>>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>>>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>>>>>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marc Fawzi
>>>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>>>>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>>
>>>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>>>>
>>>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>>>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Marc Fawzi
>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>
>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>>
>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>>
>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Marc Fawzi
>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> p2presearch mailing list
>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>
>>
>

-- 

Marc Fawzi
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
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