[p2p-research] further contribution by David Ronfeldt on p2p as successor system

Fri May 22 07:25:05 CEST 2009

Marc,

there is never going to be any community without norms, that would be a
contradiction in terms

and every community you join, except in the very starting phases if you are
a co-creator of them, is always already going to have these norms

so the questions become, are they modifiable and under what conditions, and
is this acceptable to you?

if not, you create another one or fork an existing one

the good thing is that such exist is always possible, and this freedom of
peer production is unique, as other institutions are usually coercive,

Michel

On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 10:40 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, but, let me challenge you and everyone else in my freely contributing
> way:
>
> What if the individual does not want to join the community but is otherwise
> a well meaning, good doing individual...?  What if I see myself not
> belonging to this community but just acting in the same virtual space it's
> in as well as in other spaces, and making my own rules, changing them,
> evolving my own morality and rationality based on my own experiences.
>
> What if I don't accept the meta? What if I do not subscribe to the common
> agreements of this community?
>
> I am freely contributing but what kind of relationship do I have to the
> community? CS would sound right, but it's CS without acceptance of any rules
> by the community, i.e. Unconditional CS or UCS since CS tends to involve
> conditions/rules (such as the message length that was enforced today despite
> that it is inconvenient for me.. and in this case prevents me from
> participating because it is an enforced rule that I cannot bypass)
>
> Is Unconditional CS covered by David's model?
>
> Marc
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 8:32 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> It is the freely contributing individual which aggregates into peer
>> producing communities, I don't think there is a need to repeat this,
>> especially in this community which is well aware of the context of our
>> debates,
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>
>> On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 9:55 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> <<
>>> Also, I use the partner state rather than the nexus state, I have to
>>> reread what you mean by that. But the partner state is a neutral arbiter
>>> between the 3 modes (centralizing governance, decentralized markets,
>>> distributed peer production by civil society based communities) and 'enables
>>> and empowers the direct production of social value.
>>> >>
>>>
>>> I don't see a mention of the individual.
>>>
>>> The individual in the model above has been replaced with a faceless
>>> 'peer' as a new word for cog in the wheel (of a civil society based
>>> community)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 7:18 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Interesting challenge:
>>>>
>>>> (
>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/david-ronfeldts-timn-and-the-four-forms-of-governance/2009/05/20
>>>> )
>>>>
>>>> <a few additional points:
>>>>
>>>> the TIMN forms (not to mention fiske’s forms as well) have existed,
>>>> spread throughout life, since ancient times. but they have arisen and
>>>> matured at different rates, in different eras (for reasons discussed
>>>> elsewhere). and as each form has arisen, a new realm or system of activity
>>>> has take shape around it: e.g., the rise of +I leads to development of the
>>>> state and associated politics as a major realm, even though hierarchical
>>>> institutions show up elsewhere in society too (like business companies).
>>>>
>>>> these and other dynamics about the rise of earlier forms and their
>>>> realms have implications for projecting what +N will do, and i think also
>>>> for P2P. most important, its rise must end up defining a new realm, at least
>>>> the core of that realm. if it does not do so, it cannot gain its fullest
>>>> philosophical and doctrinal import. (maybe that’s the limitation of fiske’s
>>>> EM form; it’s about a set of fairness principles and behaviors that are so
>>>> widely distributed they cannot define a single realm, unlike his CS or AR.)
>>>>
>>>> thus a challenge for me, and i believe you as well, as we try to look
>>>> ahead, is to figure out exactly what philosophical and doctrinal principles
>>>> are so embedded in +N, and/or P2P, that a new realm emerges, a realm that is
>>>> different from the prevailing ones. another way to ask is, what aren’t
>>>> advanced societies getting done using existing forms that they could get
>>>> done using a new form>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Michel's reply: That's a very good question David. I do believe that the
>>>> combination of the 3 paradigms, open and free, participation, and commons
>>>> orientation, are these values, augmented with the additional ones like
>>>> non-credentialism, and with equipotentiality  as its metaphysical core
>>>>
>>>> Your very last question points to the importance of the mode of
>>>> production, and my intuition is that it has to do with the handling of
>>>> complexity, which hierarchy can handle, and with the survival of the
>>>> biosphere, which the market can't handle. For example, the dilemma of
>>>> man-hours in software projects (more staff slows down the project), does not
>>>> seem to work in the peer production mode, thus has been effectively solved
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <asking that about +N or P2P when their rise is still new right now in
>>>> the 21st century is a bit like asking, back in say the 16th or 17th century,
>>>> how +M (the rise of markets) would affect societies. who could foretell +M
>>>> would not only reshape their economies but also enable the spread of market
>>>> principles into politics, resulting in liberal democracies?!>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Michel's reply: yes that is true, but at the same time, patterns have
>>>> been emerging and have been  identified, not enough for a full picture, but
>>>> enough to give us already some clear ideas about certain aspects.
>>>>
>>>> <even though it’s early and it’s dim, my thinking is that the answer
>>>> will take shape around some civil-society activity that will better address
>>>> social equity or public-goods matters. a new realm will emerge around that.
>>>> at the same time, +N will affect the other realms. it will give rise to what
>>>> i call the nexus state as a successor to the nation state, but it will still
>>>> have hierarchy at its core. there will also be some new modes of economic
>>>> production, but that won’t be the key, since +M markets will endure at the
>>>> core>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's where we differ. I believe the core value production will be
>>>> outside the market, with the non-capitalist markets (they can't be
>>>> capitalist since that destroys the biosphere) a derivative mode for the
>>>> production and allocation of scarce goods. But open design is primary to the
>>>> production which occurs afterward, and every open design commons will have a
>>>> multitude of market players around it.
>>>>
>>>> Also, I use the partner state rather than the nexus state, I have to
>>>> reread what you mean by that. But the partner state is a neutral arbiter
>>>> between the 3 modes (centralizing governance, decentralized markets,
>>>> distributed peer production by civil society based communities) and 'enables
>>>> and empowers the direct production of social value.
>>>>
>>>> <if this line of thinking is on track, one possible implication here is,
>>>> don’t hang the future of P2P too much on new modes of production. look for
>>>> something else as a central emphasis>
>>>>
>>>> well, I see it as a combination of things, but I think the
>>>> hyperproductivity of the mode of production is key as well: better mode of
>>>> production, better mode of governance, more inclusive form of property
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I really think we should meet live and trash out some of these issues.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>
>>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>>>
>>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>>>
>>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Marc Fawzi
>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>
>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>
>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Marc Fawzi
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>

-- 
Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
http://p2pfoundation.ning.com

Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens

The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
http://www.shiftn.com/
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