[p2p-research] further contribution by David Ronfeldt on p2p as successor system

Fri May 22 05:32:00 CEST 2009

It is the freely contributing individual which aggregates into peer
producing communities, I don't think there is a need to repeat this,
especially in this community which is well aware of the context of our
debates,

Michel

On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 9:55 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com> wrote:

> <<
> Also, I use the partner state rather than the nexus state, I have to reread
> what you mean by that. But the partner state is a neutral arbiter between
> the 3 modes (centralizing governance, decentralized markets, distributed
> peer production by civil society based communities) and 'enables and
> empowers the direct production of social value.
> >>
>
> I don't see a mention of the individual.
>
> The individual in the model above has been replaced with a faceless 'peer'
> as a new word for cog in the wheel (of a civil society based community)
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 7:18 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Interesting challenge:
>>
>> (
>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/david-ronfeldts-timn-and-the-four-forms-of-governance/2009/05/20
>> )
>>
>> <a few additional points:
>>
>> the TIMN forms (not to mention fiske’s forms as well) have existed, spread
>> throughout life, since ancient times. but they have arisen and matured at
>> different rates, in different eras (for reasons discussed elsewhere). and as
>> each form has arisen, a new realm or system of activity has take shape
>> around it: e.g., the rise of +I leads to development of the state and
>> associated politics as a major realm, even though hierarchical institutions
>> show up elsewhere in society too (like business companies).
>>
>> these and other dynamics about the rise of earlier forms and their realms
>> have implications for projecting what +N will do, and i think also for P2P.
>> most important, its rise must end up defining a new realm, at least the core
>> of that realm. if it does not do so, it cannot gain its fullest
>> philosophical and doctrinal import. (maybe that’s the limitation of fiske’s
>> EM form; it’s about a set of fairness principles and behaviors that are so
>> widely distributed they cannot define a single realm, unlike his CS or AR.)
>>
>> thus a challenge for me, and i believe you as well, as we try to look
>> ahead, is to figure out exactly what philosophical and doctrinal principles
>> are so embedded in +N, and/or P2P, that a new realm emerges, a realm that is
>> different from the prevailing ones. another way to ask is, what aren’t
>> advanced societies getting done using existing forms that they could get
>> done using a new form>
>>
>>
>> Michel's reply: That's a very good question David. I do believe that the
>> combination of the 3 paradigms, open and free, participation, and commons
>> orientation, are these values, augmented with the additional ones like
>> non-credentialism, and with equipotentiality  as its metaphysical core
>>
>> Your very last question points to the importance of the mode of
>> production, and my intuition is that it has to do with the handling of
>> complexity, which hierarchy can handle, and with the survival of the
>> biosphere, which the market can't handle. For example, the dilemma of
>> man-hours in software projects (more staff slows down the project), does not
>> seem to work in the peer production mode, thus has been effectively solved
>>
>>
>> <asking that about +N or P2P when their rise is still new right now in the
>> 21st century is a bit like asking, back in say the 16th or 17th century, how
>> +M (the rise of markets) would affect societies. who could foretell +M would
>> not only reshape their economies but also enable the spread of market
>> principles into politics, resulting in liberal democracies?!>
>>
>>
>> Michel's reply: yes that is true, but at the same time, patterns have been
>> emerging and have been  identified, not enough for a full picture, but
>> enough to give us already some clear ideas about certain aspects.
>>
>> <even though it’s early and it’s dim, my thinking is that the answer will
>> take shape around some civil-society activity that will better address
>> social equity or public-goods matters. a new realm will emerge around that.
>> at the same time, +N will affect the other realms. it will give rise to what
>> i call the nexus state as a successor to the nation state, but it will still
>> have hierarchy at its core. there will also be some new modes of economic
>> production, but that won’t be the key, since +M markets will endure at the
>> core>
>>
>>
>> That's where we differ. I believe the core value production will be
>> outside the market, with the non-capitalist markets (they can't be
>> capitalist since that destroys the biosphere) a derivative mode for the
>> production and allocation of scarce goods. But open design is primary to the
>> production which occurs afterward, and every open design commons will have a
>> multitude of market players around it.
>>
>> Also, I use the partner state rather than the nexus state, I have to
>> reread what you mean by that. But the partner state is a neutral arbiter
>> between the 3 modes (centralizing governance, decentralized markets,
>> distributed peer production by civil society based communities) and 'enables
>> and empowers the direct production of social value.
>>
>> <if this line of thinking is on track, one possible implication here is,
>> don’t hang the future of P2P too much on new modes of production. look for
>> something else as a central emphasis>
>>
>> well, I see it as a combination of things, but I think the
>> hyperproductivity of the mode of production is key as well: better mode of
>> production, better mode of governance, more inclusive form of property
>>
>>
>> I really think we should meet live and trash out some of these issues.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>
>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>
>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Marc Fawzi
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>

-- 
Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
http://p2pfoundation.ning.com

Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens

The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
http://www.shiftn.com/
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