[p2p-research] further contribution by David Ronfeldt on p2p as successor system

[marc fawzi]

<<
Also, I use the partner state rather than the nexus state, I have to reread
what you mean by that. But the partner state is a neutral arbiter between
the 3 modes (centralizing governance, decentralized markets, distributed
peer production by civil society based communities) and 'enables and
empowers the direct production of social value.
>>

I don't see a mention of the individual.

The individual in the model above has been replaced with a faceless 'peer'
as a new word for cog in the wheel (of a civil society based community)




On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 7:18 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:

> Interesting challenge:
>
> (
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/david-ronfeldts-timn-and-the-four-forms-of-governance/2009/05/20
> )
>
> <a few additional points:
>
> the TIMN forms (not to mention fiske’s forms as well) have existed, spread
> throughout life, since ancient times. but they have arisen and matured at
> different rates, in different eras (for reasons discussed elsewhere). and as
> each form has arisen, a new realm or system of activity has take shape
> around it: e.g., the rise of +I leads to development of the state and
> associated politics as a major realm, even though hierarchical institutions
> show up elsewhere in society too (like business companies).
>
> these and other dynamics about the rise of earlier forms and their realms
> have implications for projecting what +N will do, and i think also for P2P.
> most important, its rise must end up defining a new realm, at least the core
> of that realm. if it does not do so, it cannot gain its fullest
> philosophical and doctrinal import. (maybe that’s the limitation of fiske’s
> EM form; it’s about a set of fairness principles and behaviors that are so
> widely distributed they cannot define a single realm, unlike his CS or AR.)
>
> thus a challenge for me, and i believe you as well, as we try to look
> ahead, is to figure out exactly what philosophical and doctrinal principles
> are so embedded in +N, and/or P2P, that a new realm emerges, a realm that is
> different from the prevailing ones. another way to ask is, what aren’t
> advanced societies getting done using existing forms that they could get
> done using a new form>
>
>
> Michel's reply: That's a very good question David. I do believe that the
> combination of the 3 paradigms, open and free, participation, and commons
> orientation, are these values, augmented with the additional ones like
> non-credentialism, and with equipotentiality  as its metaphysical core
>
> Your very last question points to the importance of the mode of production,
> and my intuition is that it has to do with the handling of complexity, which
> hierarchy can handle, and with the survival of the biosphere, which the
> market can't handle. For example, the dilemma of man-hours in software
> projects (more staff slows down the project), does not seem to work in the
> peer production mode, thus has been effectively solved
>
>
> <asking that about +N or P2P when their rise is still new right now in the
> 21st century is a bit like asking, back in say the 16th or 17th century, how
> +M (the rise of markets) would affect societies. who could foretell +M would
> not only reshape their economies but also enable the spread of market
> principles into politics, resulting in liberal democracies?!>
>
>
> Michel's reply: yes that is true, but at the same time, patterns have been
> emerging and have been  identified, not enough for a full picture, but
> enough to give us already some clear ideas about certain aspects.
>
> <even though it’s early and it’s dim, my thinking is that the answer will
> take shape around some civil-society activity that will better address
> social equity or public-goods matters. a new realm will emerge around that.
> at the same time, +N will affect the other realms. it will give rise to what
> i call the nexus state as a successor to the nation state, but it will still
> have hierarchy at its core. there will also be some new modes of economic
> production, but that won’t be the key, since +M markets will endure at the
> core>
>
>
> That's where we differ. I believe the core value production will be outside
> the market, with the non-capitalist markets (they can't be capitalist since
> that destroys the biosphere) a derivative mode for the production and
> allocation of scarce goods. But open design is primary to the production
> which occurs afterward, and every open design commons will have a multitude
> of market players around it.
>
> Also, I use the partner state rather than the nexus state, I have to reread
> what you mean by that. But the partner state is a neutral arbiter between
> the 3 modes (centralizing governance, decentralized markets, distributed
> peer production by civil society based communities) and 'enables and
> empowers the direct production of social value.
>
> <if this line of thinking is on track, one possible implication here is,
> don’t hang the future of P2P too much on new modes of production. look for
> something else as a central emphasis>
>
> well, I see it as a combination of things, but I think the
> hyperproductivity of the mode of production is key as well: better mode of
> production, better mode of governance, more inclusive form of property
>
>
> I really think we should meet live and trash out some of these issues.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>
> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>
> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>
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> http://www.shiftn.com/
>
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Marc Fawzi
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