[p2p-research] Netiquette (was: Re: leaving this list)

Michel Bauwens michelsub2004 at gmail.com
Thu May 21 06:35:51 CEST 2009 

Marc,

why equate netiquette necessarily with the herd? It's a voluntary standard
and rather than a lowest common denominator, it aims to set a ethics of
communication.

I understand, and find it legitmate, that you want to opt out of it. The
problem for me is where we put our efforts, and not all of us find it
interesting to put it in particular activities, such as finetuning a high
volume of outgoing messaging.

But I find your dichotomy, that only focus on exit, to extreme.

I find that this sheds light on the individual vs. collective dichotomy, and
how they can be seen as integrated, from
http://p2pfoundation.net/Primary_vs_Secondary_Individual-Group_Mentality

Primary vs Secondary Individual-Group Mentality From P2P Foundation Jump to:
navigation<http://p2pfoundation.net/Primary_vs_Secondary_Individual-Group_Mentality#column-one>,
search<http://p2pfoundation.net/Primary_vs_Secondary_Individual-Group_Mentality#searchInput>

A distinction made by Heb Shepard, summarized by Rosa Zubizarreta:


*from the perspective of "primary mentality", 'individual' and 'group' are
experienced as opposite...* in order to have a strong group, it appears that
we need to 'give up' some of our individuality; conversely, to be
'individuals', it appears we need to 'distance' ourselves from the group...

*in contrast, from the perspective of "secondary mentality" 'individual' and
'group' are experienced in a synergistic way*: the MORE room there is for
people to be individual and unique and eccentric, the stronger a group we
will have; conversely, the more real support i can feel from the group, the
more individual and unique and eccentric i can be...



 [edit<http://p2pfoundation.net/Primary_vs_Secondary_Individual-Group_Mentality?title=Primary_vs_Secondary_Individual-Group_Mentality&action=edit&section=1>
] Citation

Rosa Zubizarreta:


"[what's crucial is] whether we are experiencing the 'two sides' [of
individual and collective] as a 'zero-sum game', where the MORE room there
is of one, the LESS room there can be for the other...

OR instead, as a potential synergy, a 'creative tension' where the
well-being of each, enhances the well-being of the other....

Herb Shepard, one of the pioneers of organization development, wrote years
ago about the distinction between what he called "primary mentality" and
"secondary mentality"....

from the perspective of "primary mentality", 'individual' and 'group' are
experienced as opposite... in order to have a strong group, it appears that
we need to 'give up' some of our individuality; conversely, to be
'individuals', it appears we need to 'distance' ourselves from the group...

in contrast, from the perspective of "secondary mentality" 'individual' and
'group' are experienced in a synergistic way: the MORE room there is for
people to be individual and unique and eccentric, the stronger a group we
will have; conversely, the more real support i can feel from the group, the
more individual and unique and eccentric i can be...

i think that what Shepard was referring to as a 'mentality' (whether primary
or secondary) resides not just within each of us, as individuals, but also,
within a group, or culture, or social arrangement...

not just in 'individual consciousness' OR in 'group structures', but in
BOTH...

so we as individuals, we can always discover or create ways to 'resist'
structures that are organized along the lines of 'primary mentality', and,
find ways to create forms of social interaction, that support 'secondary
mentality"....

AND, at the same time, the social forms of organization, _do_ affect us...
making one or another form of mentality, more likely... Our ways of talking
and thinking and organizing ourselves, tend to be rooted in one or the other
mentality.....

i think it's also important to recognize, that these forms or structures,
that embody and support these different kinds of consciousness can be
'habitual' and 'informal', rather than 'explicit/formal'... so even when a
community has rejected the conventional forms of organization which could be
seen as embodying primary mentality (voting, majority rules, bureaucratic
structures, etc...)

it's still the case, that the community will tend to have a particular
'culture', or 'way of doing things'... and that culture will not necessarily
be 'secondary' since as individuals, we still tend to carry the "primary
mentality" within us, even in the absence of conventional forms of
organization...

so the desire to 'belong', to 'get along', to 'not be excluded from the
group', along with the internalized belief, that to do so, we need to 'not
make waves', can tend to silence a lot of potential divergence and encourage
conformity to the prevailing cultural norms... (the 'groupthink'
phenomenon....

i think this may connect in some way, with what Danah Boyd was pointing to,
about her concern with the wikipedia community's adulation of the
media...<http://p2pfoundation.net/Primary_vs_Secondary_Individual-Group_Mentality?title=I_think_this_may_connect_in_some_way,_with_what_Danah_Boyd_was_pointing_to,_about_her_concern_with_the_wikipedia_community%27s_adulation_of_the_media...&action=edit&redlink=1>

so, to whatever degree a community does _not_ have effective ways of
creating containers for divergent perspectives and ways of being, effective
ways in which difference and conflict can transform into greater creativity,


people will _still_, tend to experience an 'either-or', between 'being
themselves', and 'being a part of the community'... even in the absence of
the formal structures that embody primary mentality...

this is _not_ something we can "think ourselves out of", in my view,
although, theory can be helpful...

we need to create, the EXPERIENCE, of "safe places for the fullness of our
individuality to manifest itself, IN THE CONTEXT OF, shared space..."

[[this is the purpose of a kind of facilitation which focuses on DIVERGENCE,
not convergence, in a way that allows authentic (emergent) convergence to
take place freely, of its own accord...

my experience of much of conventional facilitation, is that it is on the
"reductionist collectivism" end of the spectrum...:-) ]]

without alternative structures that welcome individual creativity and
divergence within a shared space, all we know is what we DON'T want, and so
we tend to throw out the formal structures that embody primary mentality
(voting, majority rules, bureaucratic structures, etc.) without having
anything to put in their place...

as the critics of consensus and deliberation have pointed out, these
"primary mentality" structures often do give SOME protection to the minority
perspective. However i am NOT arguing here, in 'favor' of them... i am
simply pointing out that, _without_ those formal structure ,AND, _without
anything else_, to take their place, we can become even MORE vulnerable to
the pull of cultural conformity that operates, generally implicitly, often
throughinformal networks, status and influence, 'the way things are done
around here', etc. etc. etc."


On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 11:22 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com> wrote:

> To me, maintaining our individual ways while also cooperating with the
> like-minded on projects/ideas of interest works better than subscribing to
> common rules. It's not the same as anarchy. Its' the freedom from rules that
> don't work for us and that wouldn't hurt anyone for us if we don't follow
> them (as others can simply avoid interacting with us when we break those
> rules. It's there choice. It's my choice. Choice is key. I don't buy that
> abiding by 9and defending) common rules/principles is better than the
> freedom to make our own choices.
>
> Choice is very important. The commons does not take choice away. The herd
> does. Big difference.
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 7:09 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> We can also try to follow the netiquette rules as a voluntary agreement,
>> and let those like Marc who feel strongly against it to continue in what
>> works for them. Still, if more people follow that agreement, it would have
>> beneficial effects anyway.
>>
>> I have started cutting out long threads, which is not helped by Google
>> hiding them,
>>
>> Michel
>>
>> On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 8:44 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Its not me first. That would be immoral. But it is me that I am
>>> responsible for. I am not responsible for what the herd does.
>>>
>>> I have a certain way of managing discussion threads and that way works
>>> for me. The herd can choose to filter me out and so can anyone within
>>> the herd. Why should the herd want me to accomodate it and forget
>>> about my need? When the herd can accomodate itself by filtering me out
>>> with just a few clicks? Why should I undermine my way of doing things
>>> to accomodatr the herd's will when the herd can accomodatr itself by
>>> itself snd allow both itself and myself to have our needs met.
>>>
>>> I don't assume that the herd cares about the opinion of the
>>> individual. It cares about the common opinion or what the vocal or
>>> powerful minority present as the common opinion.
>>>
>>> Why should anyone be ashamed of standing up for themselves against the
>>> herd mentality?
>>>
>>> Why should I ask not what I can do for myself but what I can do for
>>> the herd? Asking the latter is how wars are justified. The German
>>> youth asked what they can do for the herd not what they can do for
>>> themselves. Hitler won.
>>>
>>> So it is not about me first. It is about meeting my needs as long as
>>> they do not hurt anyone who does not want to be hurt. If someone does
>>> not want to filter me out but instead wants me to abandon my way and
>>> join the herd's way, it would be idiotic to accomodatr them and ignore
>>> my need when they could accomodatr themselves by just filtering me
>>> out, without me having to ignore my need to satisfy the herd.
>>>
>>> Marc
>>>
>>> On 5/20/09, Wittel, Andreas <andreas.wittel at ntu.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> > Marc,
>>> >
>>> > how does your unchained and unashamed version of individualism which
>>> you so
>>> > strongly associate with p2p become reconciled with the p2p ethos
>>> (Article 1.
>>> > P2P Interactions, section D)
>>> >
>>> > D. Peer interactions are judged (by others who aspire to a p2p ethos)
>>> as
>>> > qualitatively superior if linked to contributing to a commons
>>> > <http://p2pfoundation.net/Commons> .
>>> >
>>> > In order to get my point, you would obviously have to replace the
>>> commons
>>> > with what you call the herd.
>>> >
>>> > Andreas
>>> >
>>> > PS Like you I have a fair amaount of scepticism that the majority
>>> always
>>> > gets it right. But your celebration of me me me first is not a model
>>> that is
>>> > sustainable.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ________________________________
>>> >
>>> > From: p2presearch-bounces at listcultures.org on behalf of marc fawzi
>>> > Sent: Wed 20/05/2009 22:38
>>> > To: Christian Siefkes
>>> > Cc: Marco Fioretti; p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>> > Subject: Re: [p2p-research] Netiquette (was: Re: leaving this list)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > It's called netiquette but it is essentially an agreement between the
>>> vocal
>>> > minority to enforce rules of behavior on the rest of society.
>>> >
>>> > I don't share what is supposedly a 'mass agreement' when it comes to
>>> > communication. I have my own agreement, and it goes like this:
>>> >
>>> > If someone cannot bear to read what I send due to the style or content
>>> they
>>> > can set a filter in under 3 seconds to junk my replies.
>>> >
>>> > If someone wants me to adopt a supposedly mass agreement called
>>> 'netiquette'
>>> > that I did not sign on to they are being coercive. Join the herd . Join
>>> the
>>> > herd because the herd knows better. I don't agree. I think retaining
>>> all
>>> > threads in the same message as new replies come up is easier for me
>>> since I
>>> > always want to see all threads of a reply in one place.
>>> >
>>> > So it's not just a matter of wanting to rebel against 'the herd knows
>>> > better' falsehood (see Unwisdom of Crowds
>>> > <
>>> http://evolvingtrends.wordpress.com/2006/07/07/web-25-from-hunter-gatherer-to-democratic-society/
>>> >
>>> > ) but it is a logical thing for me to want to have all replies to a
>>> given
>>> > topic in the same message. My brain likes it better that way. Are you
>>> going
>>> > to argue against the methods I've developed for navigating my world?
>>> Again,
>>> > if you don't like it or it does not work for your brain to have all
>>> replies
>>> > in one message feel free to set a filter to junk my replies. It works
>>> well
>>> > for me and the other method does not, and only incentive to adopt the
>>> other
>>> > method is coercion by the herd and peer pressure, which is a dangerous
>>> > pattern. If something works well for an individual and the herd can
>>> live
>>> > with it (by setting a filter) then why should the individual go out of
>>> his
>>> > way to accommodate the herd? If the herd wants to reject the individual
>>> > because the individual does not obey the herd rules or the herd taste
>>> then
>>> > that's a herd mentality the individual should not be wasting their time
>>> > arguing with.
>>> >
>>> > Again, it works for me and it does not hurt the herd to filter out my
>>> > messages, nor would it hurt me, as I'm hear for the experiment behind
>>> the
>>> > experiment, not the experiment itself. And so far it's  been pretty
>>> > mediocre, nothing shocking or unexpected.
>>> >
>>> > But there is always more to learn.
>>> >
>>> > The herd can live with me using a way that is optimal for myself. The
>>> herd
>>> > can filter me out or kick me out of its body. But I won't change a way
>>> that
>>> > works for me to accommodate others when others CAN accommodate
>>> themselves
>>> > (by setting up a filter or agreeing as a herd to ban me) Either way is
>>> > perfectly fine, but i suspect it's all just bitching and moaning since
>>> they
>>> > can setup a filter but they'd rather complain to have me change what
>>> works
>>> > for me. What a brain fuck that is!
>>> >
>>> > So the answer is still: NO.
>>> >
>>> > Give me a better argument, or setup a filter.
>>> >
>>> > It's totally ridiculous that this is happening in a p2p research group.
>>> >
>>> > Critical thinking re: group vs individual? where did that go? isn't
>>> that
>>> > part of the foundation of p2p theory? or is everybody assuming this is
>>> about
>>> > the herd? like it is everywhere?
>>> >
>>> > Marc
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
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>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Marc Fawzi
>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>
>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>
>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Marc Fawzi
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>



-- 
Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
http://p2pfoundation.ning.com

Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens

The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
http://www.shiftn.com/
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