[p2p-research] labour, capital and p2p

[Michel Bauwens]

see

http://p2pfoundation.net/Venture_Communism

podcast at http://p2pfoundation.net/Dmytri_Kleiner_on_Venture_Communism

On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 11:20 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I do not know Kleiner.  Can you give a reasonable entry point.  The rest of
> what you say here seems reasonable...I like the membrane analogy.
>
> I agree Ostrom's work is outstanding in this area.  I think it ties closely
> with her excellent work on trust as well.
>
> Ryan Lanham
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 10:58 PM, Stan Rhodes <stanleyrhodes at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Michel,
>>
>> I agree it's not classically Marxist, but I didn't say it was.  It
>> fits in what I think "evolved-to-modern-times" Marxism is, which I
>> tend to think Kleiner embodies.  I won't debate labeling any further
>> because I'm not sure it would add anything--if Kevin wants to clarify
>> whether or not copyfarleft is more mutualist than marxist, he can.  On
>> to the meat!
>>
>> I partially agree that copyfarleft has the "problem" you identify, but
>> of course Kleiner would not call it a problem.  Obviously, it's quite
>> deliberate.  It creates an opt-in structure for the commons, which is
>> both closing it, but also not--it's a legal membrane that requires
>> agreeing to a particular perspective of commons management in order to
>> reap the benefits of the commons.  The GPL does this too. The
>> important difference with the GPL is the the high of the barrier to
>> entry--the options you give up to reap the rewards.*
>>
>> Kleiner wants an opt-in system with strong pressure to opt-in for full
>> benefits, versus the opt-in GPL with very weak pressure to opt-in for
>> full benefits.  The GPL has a very low barrier to entry to get full
>> benefits, whereas the copyfarleft, if it could exist, has a high
>> barrier to entry.  Ironically, what Kleiner sees as copyleft's
>> weakness is also its strength, and why it has lasted and grown.  You
>> need all that capitalist free-riding to help propagate it.
>>
>> *Of course, the other problem--and another important difference
>> between copyfarleft and copyleft--is monitoring and enforcement, much
>> like it is now with anything related to intellectual property.  That
>> problem is a result of a design, but not one of Kleiner's intention.
>> As a thought experiment, I find copyfarleft insightful, because it
>> couldn't work or restrict any better than copyright does now.
>>
>> Opt-in structures with strong opt-in pressures shouldn't be abandoned
>> tactically, though.  The rule of thumb: strong exclusion attempts fail
>> miserably with easily-transmitted nonrival goods.  Kleiner was showing
>> precisely this recently with deadswap.  Strong exclusion works quite a
>> bit better with rival goods, although that still varies by
>> "exclusionability."  As always, see the work of Ostrom et al. on
>> common-pool resource management.  (If I had a sig, that should
>> probably be it.)
>>
>> -- Stan
>>
>> ps. Ryan, thanks for the reply, you mention a couple of concepts I'd
>> like to address. I'll try to reply to you soon.
>>
>> On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 2:52 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Hi Stan,
>> >
>> > On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 3:13 PM, Stan Rhodes <stanleyrhodes at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I know you're not saying this, but I want to put this question out
>> >> there: if we don't have equitable ownership norms or standards or laws
>> >> or rights, why would we expect money or finance to be fair?  How could
>> >> we even tell if it was?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> To get a modern Marxist take on intellectual property, read the
>> >> venture communist himself, Dmytri Kleiner:
>> >> http://www.telekommunisten.net/CopyjustrightCopyfarleft
>> >
>> > I personally don't think this is classically marxist at all, but it
>> rather
>> > close to the mutualist tradition, though in a more 'antagonistic style'
>> than
>> > Kevin's.
>> >
>> > The problem with copyfarleft is that it actually closes down the
>> commons,
>> > since it wants to exclude non-venture business from using it.
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>
>


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