[p2p-research] labour, capital and p2p
Ryan Lanham
rlanham1963 at gmail.com
Mon May 18 16:55:24 CEST 2009
Michel,
As usual, your writing causes me to stop and think which is something for
which I owe you a debt of much gratitude during these hyper-kinetic times.
As an aside, I agree with you (and Om Malik) that real-time is becoming of
new and higher importance, and you are also right that it is altering what
we have thought of as conventional scholarly work...or journalism, etc.
I apology ahead for first trying to explain my backgrounds, sources of
study, and motivations for points of view. Sometimes they are in conflict
with each other. I think some understanding of our perspectives and
foundations helps "deconstruct" the writer.
I have thought about interest from 4 major perspectives in my life:
1. National budgets and finance. I work, at present, in government.
Budgets are the blood of government and those who do not understand budget
processes of governmental organizations cannot hope to have any notion of
the biology of the body politic.
The nature of carrying currencies in free trade, fiscal policy, monetary
policy, and inter-related items are much in discussion surrounding the US
now. I am a US national working in the Cayman Islands Government. My
interest is thus practical and, I suppose, somewhat patriotic, but I also
have an enduring academic interest in that I completed most of a PhD in
Public Administration where my main interest was budgets and government
finance. As a biographical aside, I am now switched to a PhD in Planning,
Globalization and Governance where, as you know, I am re-embarking on a
dissertation (at the too late age of 46) roughly on modes of leadership in
P2P organizations that could help build a new vision of leadership to follow
on the work called Servant Leadership. How people collaborate, enable
collaboration and facilitate peer interactions and commons is my first
research interest. My ambitions are to help facilitate worthy foundations
and other similar civil society ventures.
As to national budgets, I find that the creation of currency, fiscal policy,
national debt management, and the role of a nation in international trade
are key factors associated with interest rates. For what it is worth, I am
a neo-Keynesian on such matters and follow closely the ideas of someone like
Paul Krugman most closely, so as to expose my biases. I have read much in
Keynes (much more than in Marx) and admire his clarity and even his
worldview a great deal.
2. I am a long devotee (10 years or so) and dabbler in micro-credit
systems. I have followed Muhommed Yunus and Grameen Bank for more than 10
years. I first became interested in Grameen based on a low cost housing
initiative which received much praise in the 1990s. I have since invested
in micro-credit systems, advised some on planning them, etc. The one I am
currently most invested in is called MyC4. It works out of Denmark and
invests in Africa. I believe it has done great good for many Africans who
saw an opportunity to improve their own lives and that of their communities
by increasingly their economic output. I recognize that there are always
trade-offs associated with increased economic output. But for purposes
here, I would say that I believe the payment of interest can lead to
powerful social incentives to consume wisely, productively and with planning
and purpose. I have seen it work.
3. I have worked and studied some fair amount in international development
economics. My "gods" there are people like Bill Easterly (who I take to be
a great genius) and my friend Tony Clayton in Jamaica who is something of an
Easterly disciple. From them both I have learned that interest can become a
crushing burden to developing nations and that corruption in governance is
perhaps the greatest negative cost on the planet.
Modes of setting fair interest for fair projects is paramount in development
economics, and the theories of Easterly, Clayton and others like them focus
on highly effective grass roots projects that impact local economic output
directly. I am highly biased toward localism and local production based on
readings of Easterly, Krugman (his economic geography which followed on work
I got interested in as an undergraduate 25 years ago) and similar
perspectives. I have worked myself a good bit in advancing planning and
community-based organizations. I am a great advocate for the idea of
community foundations, for instance. I have also seen community foundations
use loans and interst in areas such as scholarship support and small social
projects with great effect.
4. I founded a firm at one point in the Internet financial services arena
and raised venture capital. Venture capital is assessed with very high
internal interest rates which leads to tremendous stress on CEOs--of which I
was one.
The CFO of my firm and former college roomate (at Johns Hopkins) took his
PhD in business from the University of Chicago where he was much influenced
by monetarists, behavioral economists, and micro-economic theorists of a
libertarian bent. I spent many a lunch arguing with these points of view
from a well-informed group of University of Chicago-trained teachers and
students.
Indeed several of my investors in the venture were University of Chicago
economists, so I got it continually and often. I typically argued contra
the "U of C" positions and was often laughed at for my "liberal" views.
However, their tough lessons on economic theory often resonate with me even
if I disagree with fundamentals. They introduced me to behavioral economics,
all manner of theories of interest and investment, and a good deal to the
ideals of Hayak and libertarianism. Hayak was Friedman's god, and I think
he is one of the seminal thinkers of the 20th century. I get angry every
time I pick up one of his works...and yet I acknowledge their brilliance.
I further acknowledge the growing and always powerful libertarian thrust of
America's right wing intellectuals. If one does not understand
libertarianism, one cannot understand the United States, in my view. I have
seen Americans dismiss Europeans and vice versa on these topics. That
always saddens me as well. Fortunately the world is becoming bigger than
either Europe or the US.
Further, I have been much influenced by the thinking of Nassim Nicholas
Taleb of late and I read his works and those like him closely. I consider
his work behavioral economics of a sort. That link came from the University
of Chicago folks.
I have also done a fair amount of reading in science studies of economics
and consider myself to be a student of actor-network theories, social
construction theories, and related topics in science studies. I am much
influenced by Bruno Latour, for instance, but that may have nothing
whatsoever to do with interest rates.
Those are my primary intellectual biases and frames for considering interest
rates. When I discuss the details in further posts, I will attempt to
highlight which perspective is most motivating my points of view.
I am not a professional economist. I do come from what you have, I believe,
referred to as a neoliberal perspective. I do not consider myself beyond
that liberalism. At many points in my life I have read into and personally
rejected compulsory modes of socialism. At a personal level, I admire
Nordic social-liberal governments, Canada, New Zealand and similar nations
as moral and social leaders of the present world. I am left of center in my
American politics, but still centrist.
Ryan
On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 10:34 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
> Hi Ryan,
>
> Negative interest is probably unworkable in a growth-driven economy, so I
> personally think that demurrage is not realistic myself, perhaps except on a
> local scale. However, the record is that pre-capitalist civilisations have
> been very successfull with it, and also current local experiments such as
> the Worgl. This is why I think low-interest solutions (to which riba can be
> associated, because as you say, the issue is sidestepped in those systems)
> are probably workable, but I do think a circulation charge that would
> discourage financial speculation would be beneficial. But I'm not an expert,
> at this stage, I'm collating material on the various proposals, defending
> their legitimacy, and opening the debate on the black box theory of money
> and capitalism.
>
> I'm very open to change my mind by the way, and any of the results of your
> study on the role of interest, would be of great 'interest' to me and I
> presume, this community.
>
> As for Marx and the monetarists, I think a more sensible road is to get
> insights from wherever they may come. I'm personally not a Marxist but have
> been opposed to the latter tradition, but despite the catastrophe of
> neoliberalism (in my opinion), I probably can learn from the works of Hayek
> and others, and I would make an effort to remain open. This being said, I
> really differ in my ethical judgment on that, I think moral systems that are
> centered purely around human greed, and destroyed any non-greed factor for
> corporate models, are profoundly immoral, more so than the inclusionary
> social movements. I think that without the social achievements of strong
> social movements, you would not enjoy any of the benefits of the current
> system, and that if the monetarists had succeeded in killing all the New
> Deal situations, the U.S. would look like Guatemala.
>
> I understand from your contribution that your family may have suffered from
> living in a particular country that was socialist? My feeling on that is,
> though there is an authoritarian streak in Marxist theory, judging his
> theoretical work guilty of the atrocities of state bureaucracies who used it
> as a ideology, is probably akin to render Jesus guilty of the Inquisition
> ... And there is the other side, while there is a 'black book of communism'
> that estimate the number of deaths at 100 million, there is also a competing
> 'black book of capitalism' that arrives at around the same number for the
> capitalist economic system. Yes it does develop in some countries, but at a
> huge price, driving other millions under the povery level.
>
> On a practical level, I agree with you is that what matters is to find
> workable solutions that work better than the older system, that these
> solutions should be arrived it through the free association of individuals.
>
> As for the New Deal argument, my point is not that FDR was influenced by
> these ideas, but rather that the existence of an alternative (which was
> growing fast during the period when the West was going through profound
> crisis and stagnation, in the thirties), and which did directly (communist
> parties) or indirectly (social democratic parties that advocated reformist
> paths to 'socialism"), was instrumental to inspire labour movements,
> including in the U.S., and that it is because of these strong social
> movements, that FDR could carry out his social reforms (otherwise, he would
> have been an Obama, and chosen to save the old order instead). I also agree
> with you though, that the other traditions of the labour movement, the
> self-organized mutual societies and self-help traditions, have been largely
> underestimated and were a major factor. I have recently discovered, through
> the book, http://p2pfoundation.net/Reinventing_Civil_Society, that there
> was such a thriving movement in the UK prior to the great reforms. What
> happened I think is that the leadership of the socialist labour movement got
> integrated in the welfare state apparatus, and that the state-oriented
> processes killed of that bottom up social movement, making it a forgotten
> tradition. Peer to peer movements are much more related to that historical
> tradition I would assume, than to the socialist and 'state-oriented' one,
> though there were also 'civil socialisms' in the mid-19th century. Marxists
> movements may have replaced them, and this is one possible negative effect
> of state-oriented socialism which effectively killed off other possible
> paths.
>
> I think that peer to peer, as exemplified in this debate, including its
> difficulties, offers a historical opportunity. People like you, I'm not sure
> how to call your tradition, how would you describe it yourself, but in
> essence, post-liberal people, who believe in freedom and entrepreneurship,
> and post-socialist people, like myself, who are concerned with issues of
> inclusion and equality, can find common ground in the support of peer to
> peer solutions, because it's a system where freedom and equality are not
> opposing polarities, but rather the condition for each other.
>
> This means that I can agree with your concluding paragraph, though I would
> add that knowing where things are wrong, is also an important guide to
> finding solutions.
>
> <I am personally only interested in the resolution of real problems facing
> large numbers of people. Whether the pointless theory comes from this
> political group or that academic one is of little interest to me. The
> burden on radical ideas is that they show where and how they can
> contribute. P2P has done that superbly in my view. No everything is P2P
> nor should it be. What appeals to me most about it is that it is not
> socialism or capitalism. That's a pure good to me.>
>
> Michel
>
>
> On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 11:15 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Michel,
>>
>> I understand the issues of riba in Islam and the many ways it is
>> circumvented. Here is Muhommed Yunus (banker to the poor and Muslim) on the
>> topic:
>> http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/business/july-dec06/yunus_11-22.html
>>
>> I think what Lietaer is against, as I understand him with my limited
>> French, is a state-debt based currency...not against interest in general.
>> But I will defer to you on that. If he is against interest conceptually, I
>> cannot but disagree with him outright and fundamentally. It is a topic I
>> spent years and years of study on, and to my mind, there is no discussion
>> for me that interest, as a concept, is either immoral or unworkable.
>> Indeed, it is a profound innovation and a great tool of society. It need
>> not apply to the creation of money, and it need not be used in
>> micro-currency systems. It is impossible to run a contemporary society
>> without it. I personally don't relish a pre-modern existence whether
>> "spiritual" people do or not.
>>
>> The complete failure of systems to function without interest-based banking
>> led to the Jewish crisis in Europe and, eventually, the Holocaust, where
>> systematic association of one people with money lending led directly to
>> particularly frustrations and loathing as portrayed from Shakespeare to
>> French writers of the 19th century.
>>
>> There are many venues from family to community foundations to benevolent
>> societies where money is lent interest free--or even with negative
>> interest. To make that systematic is a recipe for poverty, not the end of
>> poverty.
>>
>> To equate Marx with the New Deal is a trope of the right wing. There were
>> many mutual and social security schemes long before Marx and I seriously
>> doubt his influence in much of FDR's cabinet even though Marxists were there
>> to be sure. Whatever the case, I see little or no positive benefit from
>> Marx's life or writings and incalculable wrongs and evils. If there is
>> anything there to rehabilitate, I will leave it to others. For me, it was
>> bad history and worse economics that led to millions of deaths and grave
>> unhappiness and despair that impacts members of my family to this day.
>>
>> Show me a happy functioning and vital Marxist system, and I will think
>> otherwise. It has been often tried and never succeeded or even been welcome
>> by a majority. My first rule of any system is that it must be chosen by
>> free and open majorities with open choices and open access to
>> information--once and continually--not imposed.
>>
>> As to monetarists like Milton Friedman, they were wrong but, to my mind,
>> less systematically and morally than Marx. Their system was designed for
>> liberty and human dignity and ran afoul of externalities--deeply flawed yes,
>> but not systematically so. Friedman believed too much in markets. I
>> disagree with him and always have on a number of levels. I agree that a
>> good deal of evil has been done in the name of the monetarists.
>>
>> But this is where discussions with Marxists always go...to
>> philosophy...not to action and problem solving. I am personally only
>> interested in the resolution of real problems facing large numbers of
>> people. Whether the pointless theory comes from this political group or
>> that academic one is of little interest to me. The burden on radical ideas
>> is that they show where and how they can contribute. P2P has done that
>> superbly in my view. No everything is P2P nor should it be. What appeals
>> to me most about it is that it is not socialism or capitalism. That's a
>> pure good to me.
>>
>> Ryan Lanham
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> <And, to my mind, spare us the silly Marxian critiques (interest is
>>> inherently evil?--just absurd) which are unworthy of further discussion
>>> because they will never happen and shouldn't happen. >
>>>
>>> Hi Ryan,
>>>
>>> just to make a precision, marxists do not critique interest, it's the
>>> local currency movements that do, yes the p2p oriented ones. Interest has
>>> been traditionally rejected by every spiritual tradition before the advent
>>> of capitalism, and is successfully practiced by islamic finance (largely
>>> untouched by the meltdown by the way), and in a modified form (very low
>>> interest), by cooperative banking, also untouched by the meltdown.
>>>
>>> The result of what seems to you a shocking heresy which can't happen, is
>>> that, in the midst of the total meltdown of the German and Austrian economy
>>> (the hyperinflation period with dramatic unemployment), the town achieved
>>> nearly full employment. If you read Bernard Lietaer, not a silly marxist
>>> economist but a leading central banker, you will see that nearly every high
>>> growth civilitation was marked by such 'utopian' money (which in other
>>> words, worked very well).
>>>
>>> I also disagree on your characterization of Marx. Of course he was
>>> 'incredibly wrong' on a number of issues, but also right on others, and
>>> while his ideas were abused by totalitarian states, it also inspired mass
>>> democratic movements without whom the western workers would not have
>>> obtained any of the social gains which we take for granted. There would have
>>> been no welfare state, no New Deal. I wouldn't have been able to go to a
>>> free university with free medical care, but most likely would have worked in
>>> the mines and died at 14. Also, it is rather remarkable that the very elite
>>> you think would be shocked by mentions of Marx, is now rediscovering him
>>> (frontpage of Foreign Policy, jacques attali ...). I would rather say that
>>> for the moment, it is the friedmanites which are fully discredited and have
>>> caused untold harm. So let's dedramatise marx, and consider him
>>> integratively as just one of the sources we may learn something from.
>>>
>>> On the other issue, a possible response to the link between technology
>>> and poverty. First of all, the neoliberal period was marked by the spread of
>>> networks in the mass communication era, in other words, the networks were
>>> reserved for the elite. The massification of the internet only started in
>>> 1995, significantly co-inciding with the birth of the new social movements
>>> and the beginning of the end of neoliberalism.
>>>
>>> This being said, it is to be expected that in the early faces of a
>>> democratisation of technology (think of the gutenberg effect), the initial
>>> effect will be more inequality (people who read gain an advantage over those
>>> that don't, people with internet gain an advantage over those that don't),
>>> but this is a temporary effect, if the social movements are successfull in
>>> spreading the technology to the broader population. This is why universal
>>> broadband is essential.
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5/17/09, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> So the argument goes that technology caused inequality?
>>>>
>>>> How about the rise of graduate management education? Or the rise of
>>>> statistics tracked by compensation consulting firms?
>>>>
>>>> My own view is that the real reason that income inequality has increased
>>>> is that the "understanding" of value in processes changed. We have lawyers,
>>>> accountants and management professionals pointing out value contribution and
>>>> negotiating who is actually contributing value in processes--and it
>>>> generally isn't the exploited worker who is easily replaced by someone in a
>>>> poorer country. That wasn't capitalism...it was professionalism in
>>>> management, marketing, law and accounting.
>>>>
>>>> Social norms against high pay for managers fell for numerous complex
>>>> reasons--mostly based on new management value theories. And there was an
>>>> argument that capitalists ought NOT to be the winners--shareholders who paid
>>>> for their shares didn't do that great compared to managers who made options
>>>> to purchase cheap stock and took away big salaries. Take professional
>>>> sports where in the 1950s players barely made a living. Now they are
>>>> lavished in tens of millions of dollars...at the behest of their own
>>>> collective bargaining actions. Owners lose money and own teams for prestige
>>>> and fun. Where is the capitalism there?
>>>>
>>>> The story is complex and to frame it is rather simplistic Marxian terms
>>>> isn't helpful in my view; it is just absurd and loses credibility amongst
>>>> anyone who actually deals with global business and production systems.
>>>>
>>>> Marx was incredibly wrong. His ideas have been a source for endless
>>>> misery. Invoking him is a source of lost credibility for the left that
>>>> wants some vague utopian state that neither makes any sense nor is it even
>>>> remotely feasible.
>>>>
>>>> The discussion here is about voluntary participation in lives of
>>>> contribution, service, balance and tension--not some utopian rubbish that
>>>> has been tried, failed, rejected and justifiably now ignored by the masses.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you hate inequality, spread education, advance normative values of
>>>> sharing, responsibility and trust. Work for microcredit systems (which
>>>> charge interest) and which work incredibly well. To say otherwise is sheer
>>>> ignorance--like arguing with people who think God is touching their daily
>>>> lives--there really isn't anything to say to that level of nihilism and
>>>> anti-truth.
>>>>
>>>> If you want to understand development economics, read Bill Easterly and
>>>> others who know that you can't do big things through big governments or big
>>>> NGOs which will go corrupt and that development works when people are free,
>>>> empowered, taught to build their own systems and to not rely on help from
>>>> above. The answers come from the grass roots--not in organizing vast labor
>>>> or governmental systems that go corrupt, but in their organizing themselves
>>>> into small sustainable processes and systems that advance P2P
>>>> opportunities. That's what P2P is about. It isn't anti-capitalist. It
>>>> isn't pro-socialist. It is pro living sensibly. That doesn't have any
>>>> systematic economic philosophy. It is inherently anti-system...anti
>>>> hierarchy. That's why we keep coming back to anarchist mutualist
>>>> histories--like Proudhon, like Streeter, like the LETSI people in a much
>>>> more modern and viable sense than Proudhon ever was. With technology, those
>>>> systems can lead to happy, reasonably fair and reasonably sustainable
>>>> lives--and should.
>>>>
>>>> If you want a mantra to align your life to, then I propose that we don't
>>>> organize hierarchies, we should rather organize modes of sharing...P2P.
>>>>
>>>> And, to my mind, spare us the silly Marxian critiques (interest is
>>>> inherently evil?--just absurd) which are unworthy of further discussion
>>>> because they will never happen and shouldn't happen.
>>>>
>>>> Ryan Lanham
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 9:04 AM, Wittel, Andreas <
>>>> andreas.wittel at ntu.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ryan,
>>>>> the intensification of income differences is not something that
>>>>> happened in the 19th century, but in the last four decades.
>>>>> Are you suggesting, that knowledge and information-driven production
>>>>> will somehow undo this development? If so, how would you explain the
>>>>> following parallel: Exactly at that moment when information and knowledge
>>>>> became the motor for economic development (from the 1970s onwards), the gap
>>>>> in income differences opened up significantly.
>>>>> Andreas
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Ryan Lanham [mailto:rlanham1963 at gmail.com]
>>>>> Sent: Sun 17/05/2009 01:23
>>>>> To: Wittel, Andreas
>>>>> Cc: Michel Bauwens; p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [p2p-research] labour, capital and p2p
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As I understand it, capitalism is the accumulation of capital to
>>>>> control means of production. Who or what does that now? Name five
>>>>> "capitalists" who matter. Most either parlayed intellectual property rights
>>>>> into fortunes, or they invested in large financial engineering schemes where
>>>>> debt was the leverage to create huge cash flows.
>>>>>
>>>>> Very few successful firms actually produce things with capital--that is
>>>>> all in China and Eastern Europe and such places. Like I said, it is like
>>>>> discussing the 19th century. Not sure what world this is that people are
>>>>> discussing, but it isn't the one I live or work in.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ryan Lanham
>>>>> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
>>>>> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 7:11 PM, Wittel, Andreas <
>>>>> andreas.wittel at ntu.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There are many terms in Greek and Latin vocabulary which are
>>>>> still relevant today. So what is the problem with this? Yes, trems like
>>>>> capital and labour are probably not part of most people's worlds, and
>>>>> actually they never have been. They remained in the realm of
>>>>> concept/model/theory. That is not great. But that is not really the point.
>>>>> I have used these terms to describe a widening gap between the
>>>>> rich and the poor. Most people who dont use these these terms still worry
>>>>> about this development. The terms might be old, the problem is contemporary.
>>>>> Would you agree that this increasing gap of inequality is a serious problem,
>>>>> Ryan?
>>>>> Also, I really don't think that the left is unaware of how
>>>>> knowledge changes the game, all the debates on immaterial labour show that
>>>>> knowledge is today's battleground. But this does not mean that knowledge
>>>>> operates outside of capital and labour. Let's not talk about terms, let's
>>>>> talk about the organisation of production (and knowledge production) in
>>>>> capitalism
>>>>> Andreas
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> From: p2presearch-bounces at listcultures.org on behalf of Ryan
>>>>> Lanham
>>>>> Sent: Sat 16/05/2009 15:06
>>>>> To: Michel Bauwens
>>>>> Cc: p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [p2p-research] labour, capital and p2p
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe the seemingly absurd idealism of the European left is
>>>>> useful to the world. Whether it leads anywhere or just gives fodder to the
>>>>> right that the left is silly remains to be seen in the voting booths. But my
>>>>> own interpretation is that it is useful for pushing collaborative, open
>>>>> inquiry types (I hope like myself) to further question and reflect on their
>>>>> own equivocations.
>>>>>
>>>>> Most of the discussions seem better set in 1880 than 2009.
>>>>> Terms like "capital" "labor" "management" seem to me to belong with terms
>>>>> like "steam engine" "railroad" and "factory." They aren't even seriously
>>>>> part of most people's worlds.
>>>>>
>>>>> The battlefield today is the mind. Can its produce be free?
>>>>> Can there be justice in allocating knowledge and the expansion of
>>>>> knowledge? Who wins when knowledge is expanded? Knowledge isn't a
>>>>> conventional capital like a gear or machine tool. It is very different.
>>>>> The left seems unaware of that. Is there a left that open to post-capital
>>>>> social arrangements? Or maybe I'm it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ryan Lanham
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 6:53 AM, Michel Bauwens <
>>>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Marco,
>>>>>
>>>>> you may be right that there are many people who want to
>>>>> abolish the personhood of corporations, but I have yet to meet the first one
>>>>> ... on the other hand, I meet scores of people who want to be enterpreneurs
>>>>> and create a company, regardless of its bylaws ...
>>>>>
>>>>> I think that the answer here, if I'm correct about the
>>>>> lack of traction, is not necessarily to fight the old, we can do that later
>>>>> when we're stronger, but rather to build constructive and better
>>>>> alternatives .. I think that social entrepreneurships, fair trade,
>>>>> for-benefit associations and blended/value good-capital approaches,
>>>>> including chris cook's open capital, aim to do precisely that, to create
>>>>> better formats that can outgrow the limitations of the corporate
>>>>> patholotical form ...
>>>>>
>>>>> So I agree with the ultimate aims of POCLAD, but I think
>>>>> it's more fruitful to build alternatives at this stage,
>>>>>
>>>>> As you know, Douglas Rushkoff's Life Inc., is doing a
>>>>> good job of educating people in POCLAD type critiques, as did The
>>>>> Corporation a few years earlier ...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Michel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5/15/09, M. Fioretti <mfioretti at nexaima.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, May 15, 2009 16:14:02 PM +0700, Michel
>>>>> Bauwens wrote:
>>>>> > Hi Marco,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Thanks for your contribution.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I understand your comment, but my 'feeling' is
>>>>> just the opposite.
>>>>>
>>>>> No problem! As I said, I'm all but an expert on
>>>>> monetary reform issues
>>>>> or corporate law, so I don't really have any
>>>>> strong opinion or
>>>>> position to defend, no problem. When these
>>>>> specific issues are
>>>>> concerned, I'm still a student collecting
>>>>> material for homework.
>>>>>
>>>>> With respect to this:
>>>>>
>>>>> > Hundreds of cities and regions and tens of
>>>>> thousands of people are
>>>>> > working on monetary issues .. it's a vibrant
>>>>> and growing movement ..
>>>>> > In contrast, POCLAD is just minuscule
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no doubt that the "monetary
>>>>> alternatives" movement, for lack
>>>>> of a better term, is much more vibrant, growing
>>>>> and known among
>>>>> activists than things like POCLAD. I myself
>>>>> discovered POCLAD by pure,
>>>>> pure chance online some years ago. I also have no
>>>>> problem, at least
>>>>> now, to accept your evaluation that POCLAD has
>>>>> much, much smaller
>>>>> possibilities of success than monetary reform.
>>>>> What I didn't expect,
>>>>> and find really interesting, is this assertion:
>>>>>
>>>>> > and it requires really what the immense
>>>>> majority of people will find
>>>>> > an unacceptable reform.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regardless, again, of the probability of success
>>>>> and of any inherent
>>>>> flaws in the idea, I am pretty sure that, around
>>>>> here, I would find:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) much, much less difficulties to explain POCLAD
>>>>> proposals than any
>>>>> money reform scheme passed on this list since
>>>>> when I subscribed
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) (partly due to 1) ) many more supporters of
>>>>> such a corporate reform
>>>>> than of any of those scheme.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is, my **feeling** is that if both sets of
>>>>> proposals were given
>>>>> equal coverage in mainstream media (we can dream,
>>>>> can we not?), the
>>>>> majority of non-activists, the "Joe Sixpack"
>>>>> class, in American slang,
>>>>> would go for POCLAD (especially in these
>>>>> times...) rather than money
>>>>> reform which would be, in that context, a much
>>>>> more alien concept than
>>>>> "corporations are bad".
>>>>>
>>>>> So I wonder how much of this feeling depends on
>>>>> where one lives. What
>>>>> do list subscribers from other parts of the world
>>>>> think? Which of
>>>>> those two classes of concepts is easier to sell
>>>>> (regardless of its
>>>>> intrinsic value) to Joe Sixpack? Just curious,
>>>>> really, answer off list
>>>>> if you think it's off topic.
>>>>>
>>>>> marco
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Your own civil rights and the quality of your
>>>>> life heavily depend on how
>>>>> software is used *around* you:
>>>>> http://digifreedom.net/node/84
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>>
>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Working at
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>>
>>>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net <http://p2pfoundation.net/> <
>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net/> - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net <
>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/> <http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/> -
>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com <http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/> <
>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>>>>
>>>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>>>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>> This email is intended solely for the addressee. It may contain
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>>>>> addressee, please take no action based on it nor show a copy to anyone. In
>>>>> this case, please reply to this email to highlight the error. Opinions and
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>>>>> Nottingham Trent University shall be understood as neither given nor
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>>>>> Nottingham Trent University has taken steps to ensure that this email
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>>>>> should check that the email and its attachments are actually virus free.
>>>>> This is in keeping with good computing practice.
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>
>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>> http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>>
>>>
>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>>
>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>
> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
> http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>
> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>
> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
> http://www.shiftn.com/
>
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