[p2p-research] Fwd: [ox-en] No more money trickery propagandaplease (was: Re: Explanation of interest)

Thu May 14 07:04:36 CEST 2009

Thanks Andreas,

I would welcome, your contribution to:

with a disagreement whether this is a financial crisis or a crisis of
capitalism.

though I think this is not the disagreement at all.

Because capitalism is now essentially financial, it would seem to me a
rather difficult distinction to make.

The issue is rather whether it makes sense to make a differential analysis
of various aspects of the system, and specifically, analyse the specific
role of the monetary and financial system, and therefore, whether it makes
sense or not to have an open inquiry about approaches that tackle, though in
an integrated way, all aspects of our society and economy, including
measures and actions that are specifically directed to these particular
aspects of the system.

This is what the debate is about: is it acceptable to researchers and
advocates of peer dynamics and peer production, to inquire, have visions,
and propose actions that pertain to all aspects of our current society,
including forms of exchange, or should that latter topic be a untouched
taboo topic.

Since I'm assuming that you are an advocate of open inquiry, I would rather
leave that topic alone, and tackle capitalism/financial capitalism, even if
that is not the issue of the debate with oekonux.

Michel

On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 6:53 PM, Wittel, Andreas
<andreas.wittel at ntu.ac.uk>wrote:

>  Hi Michel,
>
> this is probably the wrong place to discuss the history of left movements
> in certain countries and I don't have a theory that can explain why there
> were cases where the German radical left got it wrong. I simply object that
> your method of using one quote and then making generalisations is
> particularly helpful. IMO the German radical left becomes unfairly
> discredited in this version.
>
> If I remember this right, the debate between you and Stefan started with a
> disagreement about the relationship between the financial markets and the
> general economies, with a disagreement whether this is a financial crisis or
> a crisis of capitalism. For me this is THE most important issue at the
> moment, and I will post a few comments on this in the next few days when
> I've got a bit more time.
>
> Andreas
>
>
>
>  -----Original Message-----
> *From:* Michel Bauwens [mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* 13 May 2009 09:29
> *To:* Wittel, Andreas
> *Cc:* Kevin Carson; p2presearch at listcultures.org
> *Subject:* Re: [p2p-research] Fwd: [ox-en] No more money trickery
> propagandaplease (was: Re: Explanation of interest)
>
> Hi Andreas,
>
> You are referring to a quote from a German-speaking correspondent, I
> frankly found it convincing, because I remember the very unfair treatment of
> Matteo on the list. Otherwise, this was new to me, I was not aware of that
> particular history. And such reactions must come from somewhere.
>
> In one of the last posting on list-en, Stefan argues that no money can be
> made through interest, something easily disconfirmed by anyone having a bank
> account or working for a credit card company, or any economist looking into
> the techniques of rent extraction in capitalism. Not only did he deny that
> possiblity, but he thinks that people making such a empirical observation
> must be deluded ('propaganda' 'esotericism').
>
> How to explain such a blind spot? I would be interested in your theory.
>
> Overreacting on genocide may be impossible, but what has that to do with a
> discussion on monetary reform, or with the subject matter of matteo's
> posting? Reactions to genocide are best left to genocides themselves.
>
> Michel
>
> On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 6:57 PM, Wittel, Andreas <andreas.wittel at ntu.ac.uk
> > wrote:
>
>>  Hi Michel,
>> being German myself, I find your generalisation of the left German mind a
>> bit problematic. It is true that this controversy has destroyed the German
>> left in the 1980s and early 1990s, but there was not much madness to it. It
>> was a debate where both fractions had strong arguments for their respective
>> case. The quote you use does not respresent well what you call the
>> Anti-German fraction within the German Left. There was no general equation
>> of anti-finance with anti-jewish, this really would be silly. However there
>> was a rather strong sensitivity to detect anti-semitism even within the left
>> movement, and this approach made perfect sense considering the specific
>> experiences of the Germans with genocide.
>> In short: I would disagree that the 'German over-reaction to their
>> past' could serve as a convincing explanation for Stefan's reaction towards
>> your position. I would also question if it is actually possible to have an
>> over-raction to genocide.
>> Andreas
>>
>>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>> *From:* p2presearch-bounces at listcultures.org [mailto:
>> p2presearch-bounces at listcultures.org] *On Behalf Of *Michel Bauwens
>> *Sent:* 12 May 2009 08:14
>> *To:* Kevin Carson
>> *Cc:* p2presearch at listcultures.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [p2p-research] Fwd: [ox-en] No more money trickery
>> propagandaplease (was: Re: Explanation of interest)
>>
>> Hi Kevin,
>>
>> I understand a little better the crazyness behind the reactions, it seems
>> to be a peculiar German over-reaction to their past.
>>
>> Here's the context, I won't quote the name of the author so as not to
>> involve him in this controversy.
>>
>> The gist of it seems to be that anyone who is not an adherent to a black
>> bag theory of capitalism (it's a undivided whole you can only abolish as a
>> whole) is in fact unwittingly racial.
>>
>> It boggles the mind and what these people fail to see is that their view
>> of capitalism is itself a projection (though I'm not claiming it is in any
>> way a racial projection).
>>
>> But you have to ask the question, what is the purpose of the incessant
>> taunts if not to demean and dehumanize intellectual dissidents.
>>
>> You also have to know that Stefan attempted to export his diktat to the
>> book project, hence my difficulty in continuing the cooperation.
>>
>> I actually don't want to blow all bridges, but I think I do I'm right  to
>> expect a stopping of the taunts and an abandonment of any efforts to stifle
>> free debate,
>>
>> Michel
>>
>> >See here:
>> >
>> >That’s a myth, albeit an old and widespread one. In capitalism,
>> >“productive economy” and “money systems” belong closely together and
>> >cannot exist without another. That the first is “real”, earth-bound and
>> >good, the second “fictional”, virtual and dangerous, is a classical
>> >mechanism of purification and projection: The negative aspects of
>> >capitalism (i.e. crashes) are projected into the bad “money sphere” (and
>> >associated with it were traditionally the Jews, which were is this way
>> >made culpable for the bad sides of capitalism).
>>
>> quote:
>>
>> Yes:
>>
>> 1. crisizing the money system -> disregarding the interrelation between
>> money system and productive system
>>
>> 2. turning this critique int reality -> attacking financial capital
>> without critisizing industrial capital and state
>>
>> 3. attacking financial capital -> attacking the jews
>>
>> And guess what: that mad logic has destroyed the German left. A whole
>> faction of it went bezerk, the so-called "Anti-Germans", and they end up
>> in deing pro-war and anti-arabic (which is maybe the modern form of
>> antisemitism)"
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Kevin Carson <
>> free.market.anticapitalist at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/10/09, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > Please note that after this email I will no longer cooperate with
>>> Stefan,
>>> > and that includes work on the book project,
>>>
>>> I can't say I blame you.  It's a shame that someone who has
>>> contributed so much work of value can't disagree in a civil manner,
>>> without such doctrinaire assertions (not to mention the sort of
>>> childish taunts you'd expect in a schoolyard).
>>> --
>>> Kevin Carson
>>> Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org
>>> Mutualist Blog:  Free Market Anti-Capitalism
>>> http://mutualist.blogspot.com
>>> Studies in Mutualist Political Economy
>>> http://www.mutualist.org/id47.html
>>> Organization Theory:  A Libertarian Perspective
>>> http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/12/studies-in-anarchist-theory-of.html
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
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>
>
>
> --
> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>
> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
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> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>
> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>
> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
> http://www.shiftn.com/
>
> DISCLAIMER:
> This email is intended solely for the addressee. It may contain private and
> confidential information. If you are not the intended addressee, please take
> no action based on it nor show a copy to anyone. In this case, please reply
> to this email to highlight the error. Opinions and information in this email
> that do not relate to the official business of Nottingham Trent University
> shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by the University.
>
> Nottingham Trent University has taken steps to ensure that this email and
> any attachments are virus-free, but we do advise that the recipient should
> check that the email and its attachments are actually virus free. This is in
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-- 
Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
http://p2pfoundation.ning.com

Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens

The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
http://www.shiftn.com/
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