[p2p-research] Fwd: [ox-en] No more money trickery propagandaplease (was: Re: Explanation of interest)

Wed May 13 13:53:28 CEST 2009

Hi Michel,

this is probably the wrong place to discuss the history of left
movements in certain countries and I don't have a theory that can
explain why there were cases where the German radical left got it wrong.
I simply object that your method of using one quote and then making
generalisations is particularly helpful. IMO the German radical left
becomes unfairly discredited in this version.

If I remember this right, the debate between you and Stefan started with
a disagreement about the relationship between the financial markets and
the general economies, with a disagreement whether this is a financial
crisis or a crisis of capitalism. For me this is THE most important
issue at the moment, and I will post a few comments on this in the next
few days when I've got a bit more time.

Andreas

	-----Original Message-----
	From: Michel Bauwens [mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com] 
	Sent: 13 May 2009 09:29
	To: Wittel, Andreas
	Cc: Kevin Carson; p2presearch at listcultures.org
	Subject: Re: [p2p-research] Fwd: [ox-en] No more money trickery
propagandaplease (was: Re: Explanation of interest)

	Hi Andreas,

	You are referring to a quote from a German-speaking
correspondent, I frankly found it convincing, because I remember the
very unfair treatment of Matteo on the list. Otherwise, this was new to
me, I was not aware of that particular history. And such reactions must
come from somewhere.

	In one of the last posting on list-en, Stefan argues that no
money can be made through interest, something easily disconfirmed by
anyone having a bank account or working for a credit card company, or
any economist looking into the techniques of rent extraction in
capitalism. Not only did he deny that possiblity, but he thinks that
people making such a empirical observation must be deluded ('propaganda'
'esotericism').

	How to explain such a blind spot? I would be interested in your
theory.

	Overreacting on genocide may be impossible, but what has that to
do with a discussion on monetary reform, or with the subject matter of
matteo's posting? Reactions to genocide are best left to genocides
themselves.

	Michel

	On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 6:57 PM, Wittel, Andreas
<andreas.wittel at ntu.ac.uk> wrote:

		Hi Michel, 
		being German myself, I find your generalisation of the
left German mind a bit problematic. It is true that this controversy has
destroyed the German left in the 1980s and early 1990s, but there was
not much madness to it. It was a debate where both fractions had strong
arguments for their respective case. The quote you use does not
respresent well what you call the Anti-German fraction within the German
Left. There was no general equation of anti-finance with anti-jewish,
this really would be silly. However there was a rather strong
sensitivity to detect anti-semitism even within the left movement, and
this approach made perfect sense considering the specific experiences of
the Germans with genocide.
		In short: I would disagree that the 'German
over-reaction to their past' could serve as a convincing explanation for
Stefan's reaction towards your position. I would also question if it is
actually possible to have an over-raction to genocide.
		Andreas

			-----Original Message-----
			From: p2presearch-bounces at listcultures.org
[mailto:p2presearch-bounces at listcultures.org] On Behalf Of Michel
Bauwens
			Sent: 12 May 2009 08:14
			To: Kevin Carson
			Cc: p2presearch at listcultures.org
			Subject: Re: [p2p-research] Fwd: [ox-en] No more
money trickery propagandaplease (was: Re: Explanation of interest)

			Hi Kevin, 

			I understand a little better the crazyness
behind the reactions, it seems to be a peculiar German over-reaction to
their past.

			Here's the context, I won't quote the name of
the author so as not to involve him in this controversy.

			The gist of it seems to be that anyone who is
not an adherent to a black bag theory of capitalism (it's a undivided
whole you can only abolish as a whole) is in fact unwittingly racial.

			It boggles the mind and what these people fail
to see is that their view of capitalism is itself a projection (though
I'm not claiming it is in any way a racial projection).

			But you have to ask the question, what is the
purpose of the incessant taunts if not to demean and dehumanize
intellectual dissidents.

			You also have to know that Stefan attempted to
export his diktat to the book project, hence my difficulty in continuing
the cooperation.

			I actually don't want to blow all bridges, but I
think I do I'm right  to expect a stopping of the taunts and an
abandonment of any efforts to stifle free debate,

			Michel

			>See here:
			>
			>That's a myth, albeit an old and widespread
one. In capitalism,
			>"productive economy" and "money systems" belong
closely together and
			>cannot exist without another. That the first is
"real", earth-bound and
			>good, the second "fictional", virtual and
dangerous, is a classical
			>mechanism of purification and projection: The
negative aspects of
			>capitalism (i.e. crashes) are projected into
the bad "money sphere" (and
			>associated with it were traditionally the Jews,
which were is this way
			>made culpable for the bad sides of capitalism).

			quote:

			Yes:

			1. crisizing the money system -> disregarding
the interrelation between
			money system and productive system

			2. turning this critique int reality ->
attacking financial capital
			without critisizing industrial capital and state

			3. attacking financial capital -> attacking the
jews

			And guess what: that mad logic has destroyed the
German left. A whole
			faction of it went bezerk, the so-called
"Anti-Germans", and they end up
			in deing pro-war and anti-arabic (which is maybe
the modern form of
			antisemitism)"

			On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Kevin Carson
<free.market.anticapitalist at gmail.com> wrote:

				On 5/10/09, Michel Bauwens
<michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
				> Please note that after this email I
will no longer cooperate with Stefan,
				> and that includes work on the book
project,

				I can't say I blame you.  It's a shame
that someone who has
				contributed so much work of value can't
disagree in a civil manner,
				without such doctrinaire assertions (not
to mention the sort of
				childish taunts you'd expect in a
schoolyard).
				--
				Kevin Carson
				Center for a Stateless Society
http://c4ss.org
				Mutualist Blog:  Free Market
Anti-Capitalism
				http://mutualist.blogspot.com
				Studies in Mutualist Political Economy
				http://www.mutualist.org/id47.html
				Organization Theory:  A Libertarian
Perspective

http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/12/studies-in-anarchist-theory-of.htm
l

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