[p2p-research] Fwd: [ox-en] No more money trickery propagandaplease (was: Re: Explanation of interest)

Wed May 13 10:28:41 CEST 2009

Hi Andreas,

You are referring to a quote from a German-speaking correspondent, I frankly
found it convincing, because I remember the very unfair treatment of Matteo
on the list. Otherwise, this was new to me, I was not aware of that
particular history. And such reactions must come from somewhere.

In one of the last posting on list-en, Stefan argues that no money can be
made through interest, something easily disconfirmed by anyone having a bank
account or working for a credit card company, or any economist looking into
the techniques of rent extraction in capitalism. Not only did he deny that
possiblity, but he thinks that people making such a empirical observation
must be deluded ('propaganda' 'esotericism').

How to explain such a blind spot? I would be interested in your theory.

Overreacting on genocide may be impossible, but what has that to do with a
discussion on monetary reform, or with the subject matter of matteo's
posting? Reactions to genocide are best left to genocides themselves.

Michel

On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 6:57 PM, Wittel, Andreas
<andreas.wittel at ntu.ac.uk>wrote:

>  Hi Michel,
> being German myself, I find your generalisation of the left German mind a
> bit problematic. It is true that this controversy has destroyed the German
> left in the 1980s and early 1990s, but there was not much madness to it. It
> was a debate where both fractions had strong arguments for their respective
> case. The quote you use does not respresent well what you call the
> Anti-German fraction within the German Left. There was no general equation
> of anti-finance with anti-jewish, this really would be silly. However there
> was a rather strong sensitivity to detect anti-semitism even within the left
> movement, and this approach made perfect sense considering the specific
> experiences of the Germans with genocide.
> In short: I would disagree that the 'German over-reaction to their
> past' could serve as a convincing explanation for Stefan's reaction towards
> your position. I would also question if it is actually possible to have an
> over-raction to genocide.
> Andreas
>
>
>  -----Original Message-----
> *From:* p2presearch-bounces at listcultures.org [mailto:
> p2presearch-bounces at listcultures.org] *On Behalf Of *Michel Bauwens
> *Sent:* 12 May 2009 08:14
> *To:* Kevin Carson
> *Cc:* p2presearch at listcultures.org
> *Subject:* Re: [p2p-research] Fwd: [ox-en] No more money trickery
> propagandaplease (was: Re: Explanation of interest)
>
> Hi Kevin,
>
> I understand a little better the crazyness behind the reactions, it seems
> to be a peculiar German over-reaction to their past.
>
> Here's the context, I won't quote the name of the author so as not to
> involve him in this controversy.
>
> The gist of it seems to be that anyone who is not an adherent to a black
> bag theory of capitalism (it's a undivided whole you can only abolish as a
> whole) is in fact unwittingly racial.
>
> It boggles the mind and what these people fail to see is that their view of
> capitalism is itself a projection (though I'm not claiming it is in any way
> a racial projection).
>
> But you have to ask the question, what is the purpose of the incessant
> taunts if not to demean and dehumanize intellectual dissidents.
>
> You also have to know that Stefan attempted to export his diktat to the
> book project, hence my difficulty in continuing the cooperation.
>
> I actually don't want to blow all bridges, but I think I do I'm right  to
> expect a stopping of the taunts and an abandonment of any efforts to stifle
> free debate,
>
> Michel
>
> >See here:
> >
> >That’s a myth, albeit an old and widespread one. In capitalism,
> >“productive economy” and “money systems” belong closely together and
> >cannot exist without another. That the first is “real”, earth-bound and
> >good, the second “fictional”, virtual and dangerous, is a classical
> >mechanism of purification and projection: The negative aspects of
> >capitalism (i.e. crashes) are projected into the bad “money sphere” (and
> >associated with it were traditionally the Jews, which were is this way
> >made culpable for the bad sides of capitalism).
>
> quote:
>
> Yes:
>
> 1. crisizing the money system -> disregarding the interrelation between
> money system and productive system
>
> 2. turning this critique int reality -> attacking financial capital
> without critisizing industrial capital and state
>
> 3. attacking financial capital -> attacking the jews
>
> And guess what: that mad logic has destroyed the German left. A whole
> faction of it went bezerk, the so-called "Anti-Germans", and they end up
> in deing pro-war and anti-arabic (which is maybe the modern form of
> antisemitism)"
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Kevin Carson <
> free.market.anticapitalist at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 5/10/09, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Please note that after this email I will no longer cooperate with
>> Stefan,
>> > and that includes work on the book project,
>>
>> I can't say I blame you.  It's a shame that someone who has
>> contributed so much work of value can't disagree in a civil manner,
>> without such doctrinaire assertions (not to mention the sort of
>> childish taunts you'd expect in a schoolyard).
>> --
>> Kevin Carson
>> Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org
>> Mutualist Blog:  Free Market Anti-Capitalism
>> http://mutualist.blogspot.com
>> Studies in Mutualist Political Economy
>> http://www.mutualist.org/id47.html
>> Organization Theory:  A Libertarian Perspective
>> http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/12/studies-in-anarchist-theory-of.html
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> p2presearch mailing list
>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>
>
>
>
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-- 
Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

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