[p2p-research] "Many of us will not send mail to gmail.com"

Sun May 10 08:47:48 CEST 2009

There is no way for a data center, no matter how large it is, to match
the storage capacity of a fully redundant p2p storage architecture, so
your email can be stored in the p2p cloud, in geographically
always-redundant manner. Obviously, with each new paradigm there are
challenges that get worked out over time and with accumulation of
expertise.

I disagree with the notion that just because Google makes it
convenient that we should stop the process of creative destruction
that is so essential to growth.

So there is a stark disagreement here centering around convenience vs
principle (or more specifically your convenience and my principle)

hope that helps.

Marc

On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 11:28 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'll second wholeheartedly this explanation by Ryan,
>
> especially for non-tech oriented people like myself, we want to drive the
> car, but are not interested in knowledge about the motor.
>
> Gmail has by far the most interesting ecology of services, it is what made
> the crucial difference that losing my laptop without backup wasn't actually
> a catastrophe, because my material is available through the gmail archive.
> Centralization is not inherently worse in terms of robustness. Full p2p
> architectures would have their own problems.
>
> I've yet to encounter, at 51 years of age, my first real problem with
> privacy, and have never clicked on an online ad, as far as I can remember.
>
> We have to use products from capitalist enterprises for almost everything we
> do, I don't see gmail being different essentially from buying a
> corporate-made hifi station.
>
> There are many struggles to be fought, and gmail is an efficient tool to
> communicate,
>
> Google is a netarchical capitalist, part shark, these practices are
> negative, part dolphin, it has to enable our social cooperation, that is
> positive; we have to learn to distinguish, using whatever can help our cause
> and human cooperation.
>
> Michel
>
> On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 11:57 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Marco,
>>
>> Gmail is a function rich, highly secure, free service (for seeing some
>> ads...which to my ways of thinking is a good deal if not pure free).  It
>> gives me huge amounts of free disk space, free file support etc.  Someone
>> may be paying, but it isn't me.  And I disagree with Marc that these
>> services are inherently expensive to society.  Corporations can be quite
>> efficient, and I believe Google is so, bye and large.
>>
>> I've long ago given up on strong expectations of privacy.  What do I have
>> to hide that isn't inherently coded and defended by other service providers
>> (e.g. banks) anyway?
>>
>> I love GMAIL and recommend it continually--over the years I've probably
>> put 200 people on it.  I've used many a university system, and am forced to
>> use the hated MS Outlook at the office.  I can get my mail anywhere on the
>> planet, be relatively confident that it will be available, that people won't
>> miss spell my provider / host, etc. I might add that I am fiercely pro Open
>> Net, Open Architecture, etc.  That said, my house has Linux computers, a Mac
>> and even MS Windows XP.
>>
>> In gmail I can also chat with many friends within it, link it to my
>> calendar, carry on video (when my Sony is willing) and find many of their
>> lab features such as embedded search, etc. extremely useful.
>>
>> As I have said, I'm not a political zealot for P2P.  It isn't an
>> idealism--it is, to me, a ethos.  I recognize it as a valuable set of ideas
>> whose time has come.  If its time passes, I'll shed no tears and will be on
>> to the next most moral and productive ethos/approach/system/architecture.  I
>> do believe there are reasons to think P2P represents the most stable form of
>> social relationships given a certain level of technology infrastructure.  I
>> believe it is compatible with any range of political and economic systems
>> simultaneously to existing on its own--and P2P systems from China to Sri
>> Lanka to New York City prove that to me.
>>
>> Give me a free/easy, stable, feature equal or similar facility on P2P and
>> I'll be there tomorrow (or even today).  I could probably solve the problem
>> for myself given enough time and effort, but my time is valuable to me to
>> use in other ways.  I'd gladly donate money to an Apache-like organization
>> to solve email through some other mechanism, but short of that, I don't have
>> any moral issues at all using Gmail or any Google product.  Google Maps is
>> superior in my view to competitors, so is their search.  I've shared many
>> documents with it, and I like their innovations.
>>
>> Wordpress is far superior to Blogger.  When I blog, I use Wordpress, which
>> is more conventionally open/non-profit.  On the other hand, I personally
>> find Google to be more ethical in its governance, employee treatment, public
>> positions, etc. than most firms.  I really have no issues at all in
>> supporting/using them.  That said, when something better or freer matches
>> it, I'd be quick to switch.  If P2P adapts a radical anti-market posture, it
>> will fail.
>>
>> Ryan Lanham
>> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 10:47 AM, M. Fioretti <mfioretti at nexaima.net>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> There is a question I asked yesterday in the "p2p email" thread that
>>> went lost in the discussion, so I thought it could be interesting /
>>> worthwhile to make a new thread of it. Yesterday I wrote:
>>>
>>> > What I've been sincerely wondering for months now is how it's
>>> > possible that a p2p-research and advocacy list, of all places, has
>>> > so many members "running" their own email with gmail, that is in the
>>> > way which is as far as possible from P2P ideals and suggested
>>> > practices, a way which relies on one huge provider with bunches of
>>> > large, very centrally managed data centers. I'm on tenths of lists
>>> > and the percentage of gmail addresses among, say, the 20/30% most
>>> > active users is far higher here than in any other of them.
>>>
>>> Another reason not to use centralized providers is privacy. The
>>> subject of this email is a quote from http://gmail-is-too-creepy.com/,
>>> which I invite everybody to read carefully, even if with a mandatory
>>> disclaimer:
>>>
>>>      the style of that whole website is a bit too much dramatic for
>>>      my taste, and above all it seems stuck to ~5 years ago. I don't
>>>      use Gmail, so I don't know if the reason is that the webmaster
>>>      was too busy to update the page or that the situation hasn't
>>>      changed.
>>>
>>> But even if there are many specific informations which are outdated
>>> now, I believe the gist of the page is still quite a valid summary of
>>> all the privacy related reasons why one should avoid Gmail or any
>>> other global email provider.
>>>
>>> So why do so many subscribers of a list like this, ie people
>>> interested in P2P-ness and, often, also in civil rights issues, use
>>> Gmail?
>>>
>>>        Marco Fioretti
>>> --
>>> Your own civil rights and the quality of your life heavily depend on how
>>> software is used *around* you:            http://digifreedom.net/node/84
>>>
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>>
>>
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>
>
>
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