[p2p-research] P2P Email

Sat May 9 16:21:36 CEST 2009

Yes, I agree with what you say.  I think Sharky's use of Coaseian economics
(theory of the firm) in Chapter 2 of Here Comes Everybody says it even
better but similar to yours.  Technology has lowered the costs of systems to
where management is extraneous.  No one could have expected that, and the
Internet has made it all feasible and regular.  You've noticed it and
written it, Sharky has, Weinberger has, Aiwha Ong has in citizenship
studies, etc.  We are all noticing that P2P has been enabled by extremely
low costs of organizing.

Look what Paul H. and Sam R. do now on a regular basis, or what Marc, Paola
and I started on Facebook...almost no cost...and almost instant
organization.  Crazy.  And these things have real influence.  The irony for
the academy is that they went in the other direction...almost inherently
wrong.  They became closed elites at the time the world was opening.  I
think they are in recovery mode now.

I may be naive, but while I totally agree with your points 1 & 2, my
justification for P2P is political economic.  I think it is efficient.  So I
don't worry so much about your item 3.  I do agree on all though.  Economic
systems rarely move backward outside of sheer political will--usually
authoritarianism.

The green and open manufacturing people are making fascinating arguments I
am stewing on.  I myself blogged for awhile on technocracy but found people
wanted me to say things I am not prepared to say...sort of like some of the
libertarian transhumanists I suppose.  I read this little HUMODS site
because it gives interesting tech news, but some of the stuff this
transhumanist guy writes strikes me as absurd if not downright insane.  That
said, I try to not love the model or the philosophy and I do try to love the
reasoning and the argument.  As such, if I had to label myself, I'd call
myself a P2P progressive with sympathies for market competition and
democratic collaboration.  Not sure what the columns are or the variables in
them, but it is becoming more complex.

Academics often talk about who they are in conversation with...that is
inherently closed.  I am in conversation with whomever will talk reasonably
and peaceably.  P2P is dissolving the elitism of discourse just as it is
dissolving elites in general.  But elites will not dissolve and ought not
to.  They ought to exist as the ecosystem balances when all those in the
ecosystem are given balanced voices.

Ryan Lanham

On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 8:38 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi Ryan:
>
> you write: It is a way of interacting that may be ENABLED by technology,
> but is not technology.
>
> I agree, BUT. Isn't the fact that after the tribal age, social systems were
> in fact architectured to make it difficult or impossible to practice, and
> that, before the internet, it was much more limited in time and space?
>
> In that case, technological affordances are not a minor matter?
>
> However, I agree that what matters is indeed the human interaction. Nothing
> in the current structure of the internet, the web, the use of gmail etc ...
> prevents us from engaging with each other in a p2p way ... But without
> ownership and control. they could conceivably be taken away, and in that
> context, creating more 'pure' distributed infrastructures, is an interesting
> strategy.
>
> This being said, if the social situation would change substantially, and
> anti-emancipatory forces would fight for more supremacy, even such
> infrastructures would be swept away.
>
> So then it becomes a matter of an integrative strategy: 1) engaging in p2p
> whenever we can, with whatever means at our disposal; 2) being mindful of
> the underlying infrastructures; 3) defend the P2P acquisitions against
> rollback if necessary,
>
> Michel
>
>
> On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 8:27 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> My own view is that P2P has nothing to do with architectures.  Nothing.
>> P2P could describe systems from 1370 or 400 BC.  It is a way of interacting
>> that may be ENABLED by technology, but is not technology.
>>
>> I agree with Marc if Version 6 allows a greater facility (easiness) for
>> collaboration, non-hierachical interactions, etc.  I agree with Marco that
>> Version 4 may do all those things now with slight intermediation.  Is
>> ENABLING P2P without inter-mediation better?  Yes, if it is feasible and not
>> too costly.  Is inter-mediation inherently bad?  I'd argue no.
>> ENABLING/Coaching/Mentoring/supporting/opening/facilitating...these are all
>> worthy human ends in my view.  P2P idealizes a clear interaction, it doesn't
>> demand it. Many systems can be overwhelmingly peer-2-peer (as I'd argue my
>> gmail is today) with a gmail in the background.  Don't let the perfect be
>> the enemy of the good.
>>
>> Ryan Lanham
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 10:00 PM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Correct, in the context of my definition of "p2p" which is somewhat
>>> purist when it comes to the p2p architecture.
>>>
>>> However, in that definition I include distribution for redundancy and
>>> some centralized coordination (that can be distributed too for
>>> redundancy) so, with respect to the latter, it's not completely
>>> decentralized.
>>>
>>> I've spent some time working on a UDP based reliable p2p protocol over
>>> IPv4 and eventually realized that, even though P2P architectures like
>>> Skype and BitTorrent exist already that dont require
>>> router/NAT/firewall configuration to work (but can work better with
>>> the right configuration), the architectural requirements and the cost
>>> of guaranteeing 100% reliability 100% of the time is too much given
>>> that IPv6 would solve the core issues with client-to-client
>>> communication and is supposedly just around the corner...
>>>
>>> So when IPv6 is finally here it will give rise to a huge growth in p2p
>>> apps because it will be far less costly to build and maintain fast,
>>> secure and reliable p2p (client to client) applications when you don't
>>> have to jump thru hoops (as is the case now)
>>>
>>> Marc
>>>
>>> On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 8:11 AM, M. Fioretti <mfioretti at nexaima.net>
>>> wrote:
>>> > On Fri, May 08, 2009 07:22:34 AM -0700, marc fawzi wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> because there are no "turnkey" sw and
>>> >>> service packages around which are tailored for this scenario, not
>>> >>> because "ipv6 isn't here yet".
>>> >>
>>> >> There cannot be ANY one solution that works for ALL routers and
>>> >> firewalls and NATs .... it's a zoo...
>>> >
>>> > I take this as a confirmation that when you say "p2p mail" you mean:
>>> >
>>> >  "everybody managing all their incoming and transmitted email
>>> >  directly and exclusively from THEIR OWN PERSONAL COMPUTER, ie the
>>> >  personal laptops, PDAs, whatever... that they always carry with
>>> >  them, or the personal desktop computers they have under their desk
>>> >  at home".
>>> >
>>> > Is my understanding correct? Please let me know, otherwise it makes
>>> > very little sense to spend time in more technical details.
>>> >
>>> > Marco Fioretti
>>> > --
>>> > Your own civil rights and the quality of your life heavily depend on
>>> how
>>> > software is used *around* you:
>>> http://digifreedom.net/node/84
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > p2presearch mailing list
>>> > p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Marc Fawzi
>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>  p2presearch mailing list
>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
> --
> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>
> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>
> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>
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>
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