[p2p-research] 21st Century Socialism: Eleven Talking Points

marc fawzi marc.fawzi at gmail.com
Thu May 7 04:54:34 CEST 2009 

That's really enlightening.

I'll repost your response on Ox-En (cut & paste into thread)



On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 7:52 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Marc,
>
> This is a very complex subject, but I think your dichotomy is too
> simplistic, i.e. irrational natural behaviour vs. rational human
> civilizational behaviour ...
>
> Indeed much that is 'evil' in us, does not come from the animal part, but
> from the human, and how it activily represses some 'naturality' (of course
> talking like this is in itself misleading, since the human is of course also
> natural).
>
> So the best ways of seeing it is are for me still the integrative
> approaches, seeing how different levels of psychic complexitity develop on
> top of the other, each with a potential to repress in pathological ways,
> remnants of the earlier layers.
>
> This is why any human that wishes to grow, must at some point undertake a
> regression in the service of the ego in order to become more fully aware of
> these archaic sediments, and how they influence us.
>
> I think  your 'rational' model also fails to see the transrational
> requirements, which are better developed in the East, i.e. not just to
> master the irrational with the so-called rational mind (the western
> enligthenment), but also also to master the so-called rational mind, from a
> trans-rational, trans-mental (i.e. it looks at the mind itself, from the
> wordless  'witness' position) (i.e. the eastern enligthenment)
>
> I'm not in favour of radical eastern enlightenment per se (in fact, I'm
> opposed to it), but rather for a balanced 'householder' spirituality that is
> embodied in real life and social engagement, and recognizes both archaic,
> rational, and transrational aspects of our selves.
>
> Michel
>
> On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 9:42 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> This starts out in a different context than the one being discussed
>> here but the conclusion is applicable to the context of this debate...
>>
>> ~~Reposted from Ox-En~~
>>
>> I happen to believe that there are two parts to our psyche: the
>> rational part and the ancient animal or irrational part (greed,
>> irrational pleasures, temptation, and most importantly 'fear', all
>> reside there, i.e. our weaknesses)
>>
>> Obviously, the purpose of civilization is to tame or minimize or even
>> eliminate irrational behavior but the irrational part in us is not as
>> conditionable as the rational part, which is why war, crime and
>> injustice continue to this day.
>>
>> According to latest game theory research, rational behavior in nature
>> demands both egalitarian type cooperation as well as competition, not
>> just competition or cooperation in the context of competition.
>>
>> However, when it comes to the irrational part, where fear reigns
>> supreme (and is the root cause of our weakness), we don't really
>> follow evolutionary game theory as much as we should. We do follow it
>> when we are feeling courage and when we are resourced (psychologically
>> and physically) but when weakness creeps up (due to irrational fear of
>> something including some of the deepest existential issues) we enter
>> into a state of temporary irrationality, out of weakness, and with
>> some people it becomes a homeostasis, i.e. stuck in fear.
>>
>> That is why the capitalist system works (whereas socialist systems
>> have failed thus far) even when it promotes war, crime and injustice.
>> It feeds on our weakness. We must resist it, but we cannot defeat it
>> unless we rise above our weakness. At this time seeing how people are
>> today the hope I have in my own work is to understand fear and the
>> process of gaining strength and enable a system that allows people to
>> gain courage and abandon fear, but that is akin to asking someone to
>> change their homeostasis to a new one. It's an incredibly difficult
>> process and there are entire libraries of books written about the
>> subject (e.g. spiritual books, religions, psychology books, self help
>> books, etc)
>>
>> There has to be a better way, but it can be overlooking the fact that
>> we are, as a civilization, still predominantly driven by fear.
>>
>> Marc
>>
>> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 8:46 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > I may have posted this before?
>> >
>> > but anyway, it's relevant between possible linkages between socialist
>> > movements and p2p:
>> >
>> > Magnus Marsdal on Socialist Individualism
>> >
>> > Socialist Individualism. Essay by Magnus Marsdal.
>> >
>> > URL = http://www.autodidactproject.org/other/marxind2.html
>> >
>> > "socialism is defined as the democratic management of society’s vital
>> > resources (“the economy‿). Under Stalinism, undeniably the economy was
>> > subject to explicitly political governance, but no-one would ever label
>> > that
>> > political economy “democratic‿. It belongs at the far end of our axis,
>> > with
>> > meagre individual liberties. Now, notice how the nearest challenger of
>> > the
>> > Evil Empire in this respect is unrestrained capitalism! Market
>> > liberalism
>> > weakens the position of the working individual on the labour market as
>> > far
>> > as it can, and does pretty much the same with the political bodies of
>> > democracy. Under the welfare state there are substantial “socialist
>> > inroads‿
>> > in the capitalist system. This partial protection from “the tyranny of
>> > the
>> > rich‿ strengthens the position of the individual.
>> >
>> > When the historical advancement of democracy is seen like this, the
>> > current
>> > position of “the new movements‿—arguing that “another world is possible‿
>> > and
>> > at the same time fiercely defending the existing welfare state
>> > arrangements—becomes less paradoxical. Neoliberalism is perceived as
>> > reactionary. The foes of the welfare state are truly “winding the clock
>> > backwards‿. Therefore we fight to defend what already exists. But there
>> > is
>> > something to fight for beyond the instable truce of the so-called mixed
>> > economy of Keynesian times. Therefore, we also fight for what does not
>> > yet
>> > exist."
>> >
>> > Bruno Theret, on the tradition of 'civil socialism'
>> >
>> > The peer to peer movement differs from the traditional socialist
>> > movement in
>> > that it does not rely on the state, but on autonomous developments
>> > within
>> > civil society. Such a movement was prefigured by what Bruno Theret calls
>> > the
>> > tradition of civil socialism. Very interesting French-language essay.
>> >
>> > The essay by Bruno Theret is at
>> > http://fr.pekea-fr.org/?p=11&c=2-3-Theret.html
>> >
>> > Theret also refers to three historical traditions necessary to develop
>> > these
>> > ideas further: 1) the pre-marxist socialism of Pierre Leroux, very
>> > strong in
>> > the revolutions of 1848; 2) the federal or guild socialism of Karl
>> > Polanly,
>> > author of the landmark book The Great Transformation; 3) the
>> > contemporary
>> > neo-communautarian theory of Michael Walzer.
>> >
>> > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:00 AM, Kevin Carson
>> > <free.market.anticapitalist at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 5/3/09, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > Hi Sam,
>> >> >
>> >> > I face similar difficulties,
>> >> >
>> >> > socialism can mean many many different things, but it is essentially
>> >> > a
>> >> > 19 cy social ideology that has been deeply discredited by 20th
>> >> > century
>> >> > failings ...
>> >> >
>> >> > this is one of the reasons that I use the peer to peer narrative and
>> >> > steer away from any language in that tradition
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> I think the recovered understanding of "socialism" as it existed in
>> >> the early 19th century, subsequently buried by a late 19th century
>> >> shift in meaning that became dominant in the 20th, is quite relevant
>> >> to the p2p movement.
>> >>
>> >> It seems to me that both the state capitalists and the state
>> >> socialists have an interest in suppressing this recovered meaning,
>> >> because it's in their shared interest to pretend that our only
>> >> alternatives are a world run by Gosplan and a world owned by
>> >> Halliburton.  It amounts to a cartel in which they can divide up their
>> >> market shares between people who see
>> >> Gosplan or Halliburton, respectively, as more threatening than the
>> >> alternative.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Kevin Carson
>> >> Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org
>> >> Mutualist Blog:  Free Market Anti-Capitalism
>> >> http://mutualist.blogspot.com
>> >> Studies in Mutualist Political Economy
>> >> http://www.mutualist.org/id47.html
>> >> Organization Theory:  A Libertarian Perspective
>> >>
>> >> http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/12/studies-in-anarchist-theory-of.html
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> p2presearch mailing list
>> >> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>> >> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>> > http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>> > http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>> >
>> > Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>> > http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>> > http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>> >
>> > Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>> >
>> > The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>> > http://www.shiftn.com/
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > p2presearch mailing list
>> > p2presearch at listcultures.org
>> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Marc Fawzi
>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>
>
>
> --
> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>
> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>
> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>
> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
> http://www.shiftn.com/
>



-- 

Marc Fawzi
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi

More information about the p2presearch mailing list