[p2p-research] Venture Communism or social capitalism

Sun May 3 20:45:48 CEST 2009

Hi Georg,

I am very interested in the development of the MetaCurrency brand and
ecology, as an aggregator enabling collaboration, and the current
resonnance/spirit and intentions of the MetaCurrency project. I have had a
brief contact with Arthur , Fernanda , Jean-Francois, ... ( whom I bcc )  I
also remember the openmoney ning : http://openmoney.ning.com/

Thanks for your interest in some of the axioms of the spatial post symbolic
language.

Some of the pages I wrote are still available on the web archive :

http://web.archive.org/web/20080119072546/oikoumene.coforum.net/processdimensions

I ll try to sum it up:

- First, emergent data bases of relations.
>From my current view on it, everything is relations, and relations can be
objectified and allow for new relations to be made at higher levels of
abstraction.

Objects/relations mutually define each other, from the point of view of the
observer.
The observer can move its view along the system of relations.

I do not currently think about defining a specific grammar , as Levi seems
to do with Ieml : http://www.ieml.org/spip.php?rubrique52&lang=en ,
yet I do, for example, imagine it would be fun to integrate Levi's grammar
as a set of relations which can add itself to the emergent database, and
allow for comparisons, and visualizing the position if its set of relations
compared to other sets of relations/objects in the database.

So I would prefer letting the emergent set of relations, through the
visualization of its layers of abstractions, let its own grammar appear, by
visualizing the dimensions of meaning and various patterns that come out of
it, allowing us after words to create interpretations.

The post symbolic language would be a system which would for example also
allow the zoom in/out of the emergent (networked) database of relations.  It
can build itself on existing definitions of relations - including all verbal
and pictographic , etc definitions for sets of relations.  The database is
inclusive, although the observer can choose its point of view, and potential
filters on its point of view. I can for example compare sets of relations
for objects related the object(word related to "energy" in english, and in
mandarin chinese.

I tried to create a collection of related topics and projects on
http://delicious.com/deliciousdante/ReferenceMaps?setcount=100

---

- Secondly, in this emergent networked data base or relations ( we already
have access to a huge data base of relations, via the internet - but its not
yet the visual immersive interface I dream of )

one can also include axioms related to the process dimensions,
which create relations which are objects ( depending on the point of view of
the observer )

The process dimensions start with 0,1,2,3

0 = inspiration
1 = trust
2 = action
3 = contemplation

some drawings :
https://www.registeredcommons.org/view/167/0/8066

there is a positive and a negative values of each of these, determining the
consciousness of the process dimension.

It is a non-linear system, and the values of consciousness can, when
observed from a broader brane that contains another process dimension,
reverse its flow.

It would be possible to use this to visualize the consciousness of the
systems in which we operate and/or that we create, using it as a tool to
visualize how to maximize opportunities according to intentions.

It would also allow to see relations between process dimensions.

It are basic elements on which one can build to visualize non-linear
systems.
I like to call such approach " simple complexity ".

I made a collection of related links on

http://delicious.com/deliciousdante/processdimensions?setcount=100

One could for example see the consciousness of the processes of a exchanges
information system based on addicted debt ( such as a monetary system where
money is created through debt on which there is interest ) ,

and compare it with the consciousness of processes of a exchanges
information system based on reversed debt/debt to intention/request for
support , met by support,

and also the potential interactions between them.

But easiest would be to talk about it face to face, and navigate into such
systems by using my hands as a way of expressing the position of the objects
towards each other.

The people that usually grasp such system easily are usually conceptual
minded people, who are at ease with visualizing spaces, and movement in and
between spaces.

In some cases, I can start a conversation with a person that sees it, about
complex topics and how processes interact with each other, and with what
consciousness, through using the process dimensions.

Developing a software that would make this available to all would be
awesome, and useful, I believe, as a meta-cortex - a holoptic system. in
which we can all collaborate.

On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 6:01 AM, Georg Pleger <g.pleger at yahoo.de> wrote:

> Hello Dante!
> Hello everybody!
>
> Yes, I would like to get the axioms you dreamed of.
> Think we are working towards transrational areas ...
>
> Would like to point you to the 6 minutes video introducing the MetaCurrency
> project:
> http://tr.im/MCvideo
>
> Regards from Austria
> Georg
>
> ------------------------------
> *Von:* Dante-Gabryell Monson <dante.monson at gmail.com>
> *An:* paola.dimaio at gmail.com
> *CC:* Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>; Georg Pleger <
> georg at pleger.at>; "armin at easynet.co.uk" <armin at easynet.co.uk>; Franz
> Nahrada <f.nahrada at reflex.at>; Peer-To-Peer Research List <
> p2presearch at listcultures.org>
> *Gesendet:* Samstag, den 2. Mai 2009, 21:06:33 Uhr
> *Betreff:* Re: [p2p-research] Venture Communism or social capitalism
>
> Paola,
>
> nice to read your replies.
> I m glad such dimensions can be shared through this list.
> I hope others on the list find some interest in it.
>
> I personally feel limited by words, and logic,
> although they are great existing tools.
> I sometimes find it fun to play with them,
> but more and more appreciate the non-linear intuitive perceptions,
> which are more difficult to express in a more linear logical process.
>
> I look forward to some kind of ( immersive, emergent, spatial ? )
> post-symbolic language that could enable much greater synthesis.
>
> Some kind of big heuristic map with infinite dimensions that enables to see
> all relations with all relations, at infinite levels of abstractions, browse
> them, and build on them, enabling comparisons of dimensions of meaning
> relations.
>
> In such form of expression, especially when a great number of data bases
> with a great diversity of relations would be connected,
>
> one would could "decide" to "use" and build information all together and in
> a more integral way, as every relation can be seen as having an impact on
> all other relations in the dimensions of meaning of such post symbolic
> language. ( in which processes, and the consicousness processes are being
> experienced, could also be seen - I can send some axioms I dreamed of to
> anyone interested )
>
>
> On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 8:49 PM, <paola.dimaio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dante
>> thanks for picking up on issues
>> indeed, many questions come up from unpacking the thread.
>> more than I can physically handle
>>
>> I am glad you see that possibly we view the world through a karmic lens,
>> and it is in light that I try to minimize my attachment to ideas and words
>>
>> When I was a teenager someone read to me a citation of I dont remember
>> who, i think claude levy strauss, discussing how words ending in -ism and
>> -ist tend to portray a certain type of idea, an exasperation of a concept,
>>
>> roughly as mentioned below
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/-ism
>>
>> If someone knows what i am talking about and could send pointers would be
>> appreciate
>>
>> I dont know where we mark the line between idea and ideology,
>> and I am sure there is an interesting discussion there
>>
>> I think we see how politics and religion are manipulated, how politics
>> become a self sustaining machine and just a self feeding beast,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> I often met people that try hard not to show any relation to "politics",
>>> sometimes as they try to escape from any potential conflicting aspect
>>> related to power.
>>> ( third chakra ? )
>>>
>>
>> depends where you want to direct your energies toward
>>
>>
>>>
>>> in relation to your last mail , citing you
>>>
>>> " take a stance when I cant avoid it  "
>>> " I strive for an ideology free world "
>>>
>>> That sounds, from what I feel from it, like a stance and an ideology in
>>> itself :-)
>>
>>
>> hard to tell what is and what isnt, but  everything can be labelled as
>> anything else to serve a purpose, and become an instrument of propaganda.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As for communist states in china and vietnam, as far as I know and in the
>>> way I perceive it,
>>> it are power structures using the ideology of communism. Some also
>>> combine the ideology of capitalism and communism at the same time, as long
>>> as it serves their ( non-democratic ? ) interests.
>>
>>
>> i think the questions asked earlier, we need to define what we mean by the
>> terms we use. I am afraid that these good people actually are pretty that
>> they are communists, and I will leave that to you to work out
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Perhaps it might be of interest to examine points of view related to
>>> power structures in any system.
>>
>>
>> yes, power strucutre in any system is interesting
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I would be interested in having access to more resources in such field of
>>> comparison, although there are already some comparisons between systems on
>>> p2pf wiki ?
>>> http://p2pfoundation.net/Peer_Governance
>>>
>>> the p2p meme, I have the impression, can in itself also be seen as an
>>> ideology.
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideology
>>>
>>> From my point of view, distributed/p2p systems would ideally be used to
>>> enable emergent autonomy of peers compared to any other specific node in the
>>> system,
>>> through distributed inter-dependence.
>>
>>
>> yep
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yet it might also be interesting to examine potential cases where a
>>> distributed p2p approach would go in favor of increased inequality of access
>>> to resources and opportunities...
>>
>>
>>  yep
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It opens up the whole question of property.
>>> What property ideologies best support p2p emergence and sustainability ?
>>>
>>> ... http://p2pfoundation.net/Peer_Property
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> absolutely.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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