[p2p-research] Venture Communism or social capitalism

[Ryan Lanham]

I've been thinking about freecycling lately.  Some of the things you are
saying remind me of freecycling.

Changing property systems isn't going to resolve the tensions of waste or
excess; it is only going to alienate opposing power.  I feel that getting
others to transform an ethos is a slow, challenging and ultimately humbling
process that is necessary to remake societies.

One person at a time, we change by entering into dialogues about
possibilities and futures.  Sometimes it is frustrating.  Sometimes it is a
failure.  In the larger picture, I feel it is the only way.


Ryan Lanham



On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 5:01 PM, <paola.dimaio at gmail.com> wrote:

> I agree with your concerns, Patrick
>  I need bits of personal property like my mug, my books, my sanctuary and
> sacred space where I feel safe and where I am absolutely free, etc etc
>
> I agree that the notion of property may need  to be revisted a bit, (my
> children, my boyfriend, to what extend we own things? isnt everything just
> passing, and we do really is take care of things, or use things)
>
> just controlling things for a purpose may not necessarily imply ownership
> as we know it
>
> but I feel it would be more productive to articulate a discussion around
> how to increase the benefits of certain kinds of private properies by
> sharing its usage and maximising the circulation of resources, or something
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 10:49 PM, Patrick Anderson <agnucius at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Ryan Lanham wrote:
>> > My own view of this is that ownership is moot in p2p.
>>
>> I agree property ownership has caused and continues to cause big
>> problems for those that would otherwise organize for 'righteous'
>> purposes.
>>
>> But if we cannot or will-not use some form of property ownership, then
>> how will we even secure the Land and Tools we need to begin?  Are we
>> going to beg the Capitalist controlled governments to hand these to
>> us?
>>
>> But even if we can somehow gain access to the Means of Production
>> without simply purchasing them, how will we solve the difficulties of
>> allocation and scheduling that many would rather not even think about?
>>
>> It's nice to think we would all just share and do the right thing, but
>> that is both naive and even downright dangerous because we then fail
>> to prepare for those that WILL do the wrong thing.
>>
>> Protecting any organization requires we plan for the worst elements.
>> Security is made best by taking the stance of the would-be attacker or
>> disrupter and then designing measures that will thwart those advances.
>>
>> Again, 'raw' property ownership is a problem, and we cannot use it in
>> 'bare' form while expecting to see a difference from what we already
>> experience (Excessive Capital accumulation for example).
>>
>> But since owners are traditionally the semi-ultimate controllers of
>> that property, maybe we could utilize the 'good' portions of ownership
>> to have a place to stand while applying some restrictions against the
>> 'bad' portions of ownership (since owners can always add "Terms of
>> Use" to their own property) in a manner analogous to the way the GNU
>> GPL uses Copyright against itself.
>>
>> I won't say what I think should be in the "Terms of Use", since I've
>> already said this part in the past, and will only get in trouble if I
>> repeat that now.
>>
>> I don't want to debate (right now) *what* the constraints should be,
>> I'm only wondering if such an approach is worthy of consideration as
>> an avenue of implementation.
>>
>> Patrick
>>
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Paola Di Maio,
> ****************************************
>
>
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