[p2p-research] Obama's reversal of promises = pathological lying?

Tue Mar 24 18:45:36 CET 2009

I agree that there is no better time than now to search for positive and
radical solutions.

But it's definitely good to recognize the growing fear and the trends that
might lead into war and disaster and keep them in check and educate people
about the significance of those trends.

On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 10:26 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi Marc,
>
> you can't control what everybody is feeling and historically, deep
> depressions have created favourable ground for extremisms, but also,
> positively, the search for 'radical' solutions that go at the 'root' of the
> problem,
>
> the key is to offer a convincing narrative and alternative to channel
> positive energies for change,
>
> Michel
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:18 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> No that I'm not triggered I can convey the following:
>>
>> In my experience, a civilian security force and a police state (the no fly
>> list as a list of enemies) both represent a proven method to get society in
>> the mind zone for perpetual war and disaster, both manufactured for some
>> geopolitical purpose, and both serving to control and brainwash the
>> population to achieve that purpose.
>>
>> Having said that, I can feel a very dark voice in the  background of all
>> of this noise and turmoil. In fact, we can all hear it.
>>
>> Maybe I am being pessimistic and maybe it's because of what's going on in
>> my personal life at the moment, but the totality of what's happening to
>> people here in the US and everywhere, the fear that is spreading like unseen
>> but felt forest fire, is creating this mentally present and dark voice in
>> our collective conscious. If people start being driven by that voice then
>> it's over, i.e. fear brings fear like a global epidemic spread through the
>> media and on the Internet.
>>
>> What we have to do, in my update opinion, is to listen to the voice of
>> light and try to meditate to reach a higher state of consciousness, not
>> dwell in this fear of what's to come because if we continue to listen to the
>> dark voice in the background we will amplify the fear for ourselves and
>> others. The world, everyone, is jittery. Those who will survive this wave of
>> fear are not those who dig in and prepare for war and disaster but those
>> recognize the fear yet choose to tune into what's positive.
>>
>> Therefore, I regret latching on and amplifying the fear.
>>
>> But it's better to recognize it than to live in it or react unconsciously
>> to it (by digging in and getting ready for the worse)
>>
>> Once recognized, fear can be dealt with by tuning into the positive things
>> that are happening all around us and trying to amplify those things, thus
>> marginalizing the fear.
>>
>> Does that make sense?
>>
>> Marc
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 12:23 PM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Then all Obama is doing is embracing and extending the agenda enacted
>>> by Bush while offering little hope here and there to suspend peoples
>>> judgment or delay it as much as possible.
>>>
>>> A little statistical dithering in his decision making gives a warm
>>> fuzzy feeling and makes it easier for the people to like what they
>>> see.
>>>
>>> Item #2 is the extend part of embrace and extend.
>>>
>>> I voted for Obama.
>>>
>>> So this is all wonderful news to me.
>>>
>>> Historically speaking, the establishment of a civilian security force
>>> and basic training has been a precursor to war in   the past.
>>>
>>> Marc
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3/23/09, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > Hi Marc,
>>> >
>>> > Item 1 seems to me to be a holdover of the securitization after Bush
>>> ...
>>> >
>>> > similarly to the failure of New Labour in that regard, the new admin
>>> may
>>> > feel that it cannot pull back on some measures, for fear of opening
>>> > accusations of 'softness' ?
>>> >
>>> > of course, these forces may also believe themselves in the need for a
>>> > stronger security state, especially in the context of expected social
>>> > unrest,
>>> >
>>> > Michel
>>> >
>>> > On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 1:19 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Yes, that all makes sense and I support it too in my general outlook
>>> and
>>> >> my
>>> >> long term stance but I am triggered by two very specific things:
>>> >>
>>> >> 1. No fly listed = terrorist. This is similar to what happened in the
>>> >> past
>>> >> that led to the rise of totalitarian governments. It is in the
>>> extreme.
>>> >> Average Americans are on that list. People born here whose only crime
>>> is
>>> >> that they exercised there right under the Constitution for peaceful
>>> >> assembly.  This is very very wrong and his Chief of Staff should be
>>> fired
>>> >> for asserting that they will implement this.
>>> >>
>>> >> 2. The civilian security force and the basic training requirements.
>>> This
>>> >> is
>>> >> again taken from the same playbook as #1. I have seen this kind of
>>> >> preparation happen before major wars, not just for the heck of it or
>>> to
>>> >> be
>>> >> "prepared."  Why don't they just say prepare for war?
>>> >>
>>> >> I am very triggered by #1 and #2 because they represent an established
>>> >> pattern for me, per personal experience, which I can shed light on
>>> some
>>> >> other time... when I'm less triggered.
>>> >>
>>> >> But this mix of conspiracy paranoia with serious dangerous trends is
>>> not
>>> >> helpful to anyone. Someone should put Alex Jones behind bars or just
>>> get
>>> >> him
>>> >> to shut up. Someone more level headed should be in charge of pointing
>>> out
>>> >> calmly and rationally that the above pattern has been observed in
>>> other
>>> >> countries prior to major wars. I can do some research to expand beyond
>>> >> the
>>> >> two countries I'm familiar with and the two major wars that followed
>>> the
>>> >> establishment of civilian security force and basic training
>>> requirement,
>>> >> and
>>> >> I had lived in one of those two countries against my will (it took us
>>> >> years
>>> >> to get them to let us leave that country)
>>> >>
>>> >> I understand that correlations does not equal causation, but it's a
>>> >> pretty
>>> >> damn strong correlation. Why are they repeating these patterns that
>>> had
>>> >> been
>>> >> associated with preparation for war if they don't think that a war is
>>> >> coming
>>> >> at some point?
>>> >>
>>> >> Well, hey maybe I am crazy.
>>> >>
>>> >> Marc
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Michel Bauwens
>>> >> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> Hi Marc,
>>> >>>
>>> >>> perhaps I was less disappointed because the dual nature of the Obama
>>> >>> victory was to be expected,
>>> >>>
>>> >>> what I'm saying is that 'progressive' forces should critically
>>> support
>>> >>> the
>>> >>> obama admin against more hostile forces, while keeping pressure to
>>> bear
>>> >>> in
>>> >>> all the cases where the Admin does not go in the sense of the
>>> promises
>>> >>> and
>>> >>> expectations ...
>>> >>>
>>> >>> politicians are sensible to pressure, and I had a talk in Milan with
>>> >>> people given examples of how unions made him back away from certain
>>> >>> measures
>>> >>> already ...
>>> >>>
>>> >>> in politics, there may be better, but there is always almost
>>> certainly
>>> >>> worse as well!
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 1:01 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>
>>> >>> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> I was "triggered" violently by two things in that video (which is
>>> over
>>> >>>> the top for sure)
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> 1. His Chief of Staff saying that if you're on the no fly zone then
>>> you
>>> >>>> are not one of us and you're a terrorist. My girlfriend is on the no
>>> >>>> fly
>>> >>>> list. She's born here. American blood. Her family came here in
>>> 1700s.
>>> >>>> She
>>> >>>> had participated in anti-war demonstrations. Every time we go to the
>>> >>>> airport
>>> >>>> it's one big fiasco. To say that she and people like her are
>>> terrorists
>>> >>>> is
>>> >>>> BLIND and DANGEROUS to the extreme as far as liberty goes.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> 2. The "civilian security force" he is advocating for and the basic
>>> >>>> training. I had lived in a country that implemented those same
>>> schemes
>>> >>>> and
>>> >>>> then got into war within 3-5 years after that. This triggers me to
>>> the
>>> >>>> extreme as I have seen such preparation come before disaster, not
>>> >>>> after.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> 3. Broadcasting an official presidential campaign message (on TV)
>>> that
>>> >>>> says NAFTA was a mistake then turning to the Canadians and saying
>>> that
>>> >>>> it's
>>> >>>> just campaign rhetoric.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Because I am triggered by these two events, my trust in Obama is
>>> null
>>> >>>> and
>>> >>>> void.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> You do have a point in being level headed and applying pressure
>>> >>>> especially since he has the upper hand and will continue to have the
>>> >>>> upper
>>> >>>> hand no matter how many people get triggered and angered.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Marc
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 10:18 AM, Michel Bauwens <
>>> >>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> no politician that I know of would be able to keep all of his
>>> promises
>>> >>>>> ...
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> his record is mixed, and he's broken a number of them,
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> but to call that pathological, i.e. singling him out as extreme,
>>> seems
>>> >>>>> over the top, as is the rest of this conspiracy video ...
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> I think that a balanced judgment would require different sources
>>> and a
>>> >>>>> more level-headed judgment of what he's done or not ..
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> of course, his administration stance on the RIAA and other matters
>>> is
>>> >>>>> problematic,
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> a critical stance, coupled with self-organizing activity and
>>> pressure
>>> >>>>> on
>>> >>>>> the administration by the social forces that elected him, would
>>> still
>>> >>>>> seem
>>> >>>>> the right option,
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Michel
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> 2009/3/23 marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Skip to 45:00 minutes through the video and wait for a recount of
>>> of
>>> >>>>>> Obama's reversal of promises.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Then forward to 1:01:00 and watch Greenspan saying on PBS that the
>>> >>>>>> Federal Reserve is above the President and above Congress.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Seeing how pathological lying (or pathological reversal of
>>> promises)
>>> >>>>>> allowed people that I know intimately to manipulate and deceive
>>> their
>>> >>>>>> employees, partners, and investors and as a result profit in the
>>> tens
>>> >>>>>> of
>>> >>>>>> millions of dollars I can see clearly why Obama finds it tempting
>>> and
>>> >>>>>> irresistible to use the same method.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> In fact, one can argue that mega success in America is achieved
>>> >>>>>> through
>>> >>>>>> pathological lying, manipulation and legally protected theft.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> >>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>> >>>>>>
>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> --
>>> >>>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University-
>>> >>>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>> >>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>> >>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>>> >>>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>>> >>>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> --
>>> >>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>> >>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>> >>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>> >>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>>> >>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>> >>>
>>> >>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>>> >>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>> > http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>> > http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>> >
>>> > Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>> > http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>>> > http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>> >
>>> > Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>> >
>>> > The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>>> > http://www.shiftn.com/
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>
> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>
> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>
> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
> http://www.shiftn.com/
>
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