[p2p-research] Fwd: switching to another mailing list if nobody comes forward before Monday

Sun Mar 15 04:15:27 CET 2009

Dear friends,

despite using the password provided by Ned, authorization to access the
admin part is now failing ... so I'm no longer able to approve of messages

I will myself unsubscribe to the list in the late afternoon on Monday, if no
alternative moderator (or other solution the community may come up with, if
it values the continuation of the list) comes forward

I will send research based info to p2pf at yahoogroups.com, which was intended,
but never used, as the 'internal' list to discuss p2p foundation matters,

Those interested, in the case no interim solution is found, may want to
switch to that new address,

Michel

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: p2presearch-owner at listcultures.org <p2presearch-owner at listcultures.org
>
Date: Mar 15, 2009 9:07 AM
Subject: p2presearch post from thg at mindspring.com requires approval
To: p2presearch-owner at listcultures.org

As list administrator, your authorization is requested for the
following mailing list posting:

   List:    p2presearch at listcultures.org
   From:    thg at mindspring.com
   Subject: Re: Re Energy Standard
   Reason:  Post by non-member to a members-only list

At your convenience, visit:

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to approve or deny the request.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Thomas Greco -- thg" <thg at mindspring.com>
To: "Michel Bauwens" <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>, "chris cook" <
cojock at hotmail.com>, "Peer-To-Peer Research List" <
p2presearch at listcultures.org>
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 07:54:34 +0700
Subject: Re: Re Energy Standard
 Dear Chris,
I thought we understood each other better but we keep stumbling over the
same point.

You say,
"A Currency is a Value Unit which people regard as acceptable in
exchange..."

That is a de facto reality ONLY because legal tender laws have been imposed
that make political currencies self-referential. Such laws have obliterated
the distinction between the measure of value and the political currency as a
means of payment.
*As I've said before, a currency is NOT a value unit. A currency is a means
of payment that is DENOMINATED in a value unit.* Just as cloth is measured
in yards or meters, a currency is measured in dollars, euros, yen, etc.

To understand this one needs to think back to the time when the dollar, for
example, was defined as a specified weight of silver. Any banknote
denominated in dollars could then be evaluated in terms of that definition.
If a currency issuer were to abuse their note issuance, their notes might
pass in the market at a discount from face value, or be refused as payment
entirely. Political currencies have been protected from that natural
consequence by the imposition of laws that prevent discounting or refusal.
Thus the objective standard is obliterated and the currency itself becomes
the standard. But this is not the natural state of affairs.

We need to define and use (despite legal prohibitions) a value unit that is
based on an objective standard. An energy standard is fine with me but you
will need to define it in such a way as to make it operational. A *market
value* is what we're talking about, so what energetic commodity is actively
traded that can be used as a value benchmark?

I dealt with this entire topic in part III and appendices of my book Money
and Debt, which is available on my website.
Also, Riegel made some clear statements about valuation.

regards,
Tom

----- Original Message -----
*From:* Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
*To:* chris cook <cojock at hotmail.com> ; Peer-To-Peer Research
List<p2presearch at listcultures.org>
*Cc:* Tom Greco <circ2 at mindspring.com> ; Margrit
Kennedy<margritkennedy at monneta.org>; Ludwig
Schuster <schuster at livingcity.de> ; Bernard Lietaer <blietaer at earthlink.net>
*Sent:* Friday, March 13, 2009 05:15 PM
*Subject:* Re: Re Energy Standard

Great explanation Chris,

I will publish on the 17th in the p2p blog,

Michel

On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 5:03 PM, chris cook <cojock at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Michel
>
> *Value Standards*
> First, there is a requirement for a Unit of Measure or "Value Standard", as
> I prefer to call it.
>
> This is purely an abtract Unit (ie "One"), but in my opinion it must
> necessarily be something to which people can relate. ie the question is, One
> What? A metre is a Unit of measure of length: a kilogram is a Unit of
> measure of weight, and we need a Unit of measure of Value in order to enter
> into exchange transactions at a price measured in that Unit.
>
> Value, like Beauty, is in the eye of the beholder, of course, but I think
> there are three universal sources of Value.
>
> (a) Location (space) - which has a Value in use, and in fact over two
> thirds of money in existence is backed by the use value of land, since it
> was created as interest-bearing  loans secured over land/location and the
> buildings built on it.
>
> (b) Knowledge - also has a value in use, whether the inherent intellectual
> capital we accumulate over time (ie experience, training, knowledge) and
> which dies with us,or the timeless objectified Intellectual Property which
> we may leave behind us;
>
> (c) Energy - has a value in use, and on the one hand, is routinely invested
> in Location/Land (often in very profligate ways eg cement/concrete) and is
> also the "Unqualified Labour" which an individual may bring to bear, and
> which he uses his "Intellectual Capital" to deploy to best advantage.
>
> I believe that Energy is the Value Standard to which most people will be
> able to relate and by reference to which they will exchange Value objects
> aka "Currencies".
>
> But of course, it's not  a matter of "either/or": people always have used,
> and always will use, the Standard that makes most sense to them, and the
> evolution of a Standard will be an "emergent" process, I think. ie it's
> about "What Works".
>
> *Value Units*
> The Value Standard involves the relationship between Subject (me) and the
> Object - the Value or "Money's Worth" which I exchange *by reference to*the Value Standard.
>
> A Currency is a Value Unit which people regard as acceptable in exchange ie
> it is "fungible". The question then is what is the extent of that
> fungibility.
>
> I believe that the "Global Reserve Currency" will be a Unit redeemable in
> energy value - lets call it an "Energy Dollar".
>
> Energy Dollars will be exchanged by reference to an Energy Standard I call
> the "Petro".
>
> The platform on which this exchange takes place will the "International
> Energy Clearing Union", and transactions will take place on credit terms
> subject to a mutual guarantee.
>
> Both holders of positive energy balances (energy creditors)  and negative
> energy balances (energy debtors) will pay an amount into an "Energy Pool",
> and this Pool will constitute a fund available to make the necessary
> investment in energy savings and renewable energy production to rectify the
> imbalances. This is of course exactly parallel to Keynes' International
> Clearing Union, and his Gesellian approach to the (centrally issued "fiat"
> currency) Bancor.
>
> The "Global Reserve" I am referring to will be an "Energy Pool",
> constituting the Pool of future global energy production, both renewable and
> non-renewable.
>
> My strategy for Iran, and indeed other countries who are (temporarily) rich
> in non-renewables and are profligate in their use, is to monetise this
> energy and issue it as an Energy Dividend to the population.  In this way
> they will have to pay the "Global market price" (in a new global market not
> dominated and manipulated by middlemen) but will be compensated with the
> issue of units redeemable for energy (denominated in Petros) which they will
> be able to exchange for something of value - from anywhere in the world.
>
> Note that these fungible Energy units cover only a part of the value in
> circulation.
>
> There is then a question of "National Reserve Currencies".
>
> As I have outlined  here
>
>
> http://www.slideshare.net/ChrisJCook/equity-shares-a-solution-to-the-credit-crash-presentation
>
> I believe that the only viable solution to the Credit Crunch is to
> "unitise" the rental value of property. The effect of this will be to create
> Currencies redeemable in land rental value and the creation of a "Land
> Rental Pool" which may be monetised in order to develop and maintain
> economies. These, of course, have "exchange control" built in, since while
> they may be acceptable in other countries because they may wish to use them
> to acquire godds and services form the issuing country in due course, they
> are *redeemable *only in the country of issue.
>
> Finally, there is the individual as source of Value, and he (individually)
> or they (collectively within "enterprises" defined by a protocol) may also
> issue Units redeemable in Value, being a combination of unqualified Labour
> value (energy again), Intellectual Capital, and Intellectual Property.
>
> So the future as I see it is of a network of  networks of communities
> within which Units of Value are exchanged by reference to a Value Standard
> on a generic International Clearing Union platform (incorporating a
> "transaction engine" -an Apache Money messaging server if you will) and *decentralised
> *"shared transaction and title repositories" - Riegel's "Ledger of
> Ledgers" wherein is accounted who has what obligations to whom, and who has
> rights of use in what.
>
> I believe that it is the Energy Standard to which most people will be able
> to relate.  Moreover, I believe that the Energy Accounting implicit in the
> clearing of transactions using an Energy Standard will give us a simple
> route to transition from a carbon energy economy to an economy based on
> renewable energy.
>
> Key to it all is the "Not for Loss"  consensual partnership-based framework
> - the cross-border legal XML tying together semantically the disparate
> jurisdictions and enterprises instead of hardware and software - within
> which the platform and the participants will operate. There is no "profit"
> and no "loss" within a partnership -merely creation and exchange of value in
> all its forms.
>
> Sorry to have answered your question (if I did!) at such length, but it
> stimulated something of a "brain-dump"!
>
> Best Regards
>
> Chris
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 09:11:16 +0700
> Subject: Re: FW: Re Energy Standard
> From: michelsub2004 at gmail.com
> To: cojock at hotmail.com
> CC: circ2 at mindspring.com
>
>
> Dear Chris,
>
> I would like to publish your letter here, but it would need some
> contextualization.
>
> As I understand it from Tom, there is a difference between backing up a
> currency with something objective, and merely expressing it as a value
> standard? But I would still be at a loss to explain this myself.
>
> So I wonder if you could introduce this for laypeople, with an extra
> paragraph or two?
>
> Michel
>
> On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 12:47 AM, chris cook <cojock at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Michel, Tom
>
> This FYI
>
> Chris
>
> ------------------------------
> From: cojock at hotmail.com
> To: frank_churchill at mac.com
> Subject: RE: P2P
> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 17:37:41 +0000
>
> Dear Frank
>
> Indeed there is a need for a global reserve currency and the presentation I
> made in Iran envisages a Unit of energy as what I call a "Value Standard".
> I call it a "Petro" as a working name, and in terms of specification I use
> the energy released from the combustion of 1 litre of n-Octane at 20 degrees
> celsius.
>
> It could as easily be the energy released by the decay of x gms of y
> isotope, or the energy output of the average bloke in an hour when
> shovelling sand. The point is that it needs to be something that people can
> relate to in their everyday experience.
>
> Note that the Petro is not a redeemable Value Unit (ie a fungible quasi -
> currency) . It is the Energy Standard by which exchange transactions
> -whether in goods and services generally, or of "Value Units" redeemable in
> energy or land rental values - are *priced*. The outcome of using an
> Energy Standard is essentially of energy accounting, with which I am sure
> you are familiar
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Accounting
>
> My strategy in Iran (who with Qatar and Russia are the key founder members
> of the Gas OPEC) is to work towards implementation of a global market in
> Natural Gas - using the "Clearing Union" approach - and to "unitise" Natural
> Gas through the simple expedient of introducing Units redeemable in natural
> gas. These will not actually *be *Petros, but they will have a constant
> value expressed in Petros, as will other carbon-based fuels eg gasoline,
> kerosene, diesel, heating oil.
>
> Equally, electricity will have a constant value expressed in Petros.
>
> Now, using the "Energy Pool" approach I advocate, and will touch upon
> tomorrow, it is possible to monetise the energy value of renewable energy
> (by selling production forward) and even energy savings (NegaWatts) by
> selling energy savings forward. Energy economics using energy accounting
> turns conventional assumptions on their heads, because we may obtain value
> now for something which will cost us nothing to redeem in the future.
>
> It also opens the way to a viable policy of a *carbon levy *(as opposed to
> a carbon tax) into a "Carbon Pool" which is used to invest in renewables and
> energy efficiency at nil cost to the carbon user (who receives an "energy
> dividend in "Units" from the Pool), but incentivising reduced energy use.
>
> Where the Technocrats went wrong IMHO is that they ignored the value of the
> exclusive use of location/land  (which underpins some two thirds of the
> money in existence) and of course the use value of the individual's
> "Intellectual Capital" (as opposed to his calorific labour value).
>
> Because there is a great deal of energy value actually invested/embedded in
> location/land, and also because many jobs are underpinned by actual
> energy/work, then I believe an energy standard is in fact the logical
> candidate for the necessary clearing utility.
>
> In particular, I believe that it is only through monetising the *energy
> value* of carbon - as opposed to the complete fatuity of monetising by
> fiat something with no intrinsic value, such as CO2 emissions or carbon
> credits - that we will successfully make the transition from non-renewable
> energy to renewables (and this informed an energy startegy document I
> prepared for Iran's Majlis Energy Commission).
>
> Indeed, nowhere is this more necessary in Iran, where there is monstrous
> waste of carbon-based fuels (and horrendous environmental problems) because
> of the current massive subsidies. The solution I propose solves the subsidy
> problem through the issue of Units redeemable in gasoline/ natural gas (and
> priced against the Petro) which will be generally and equitably issued, but
> will incentivise energy conservation because this *literally *saves money.
>
> Worthy though Bernard's Terra is, I see it as inherently complex, difficult
> for individuals to relate to, and very much more difficult to use to address
> the climate change issue.
>
> Finally, the architecture you have in mind is, would, as far as I can see,
> lead to an intermediated architecture with a Credit Object (eg the Terra, or
> Keynes' Bancor) issued by an issuing authority, which would be all too
> likely to end up as a bureaucracy, or as part of a bureaucracy. The approach
> I am taking entails framework agreements governing bilateral issue, rather
> than centralised issuing organisations.
>
> I look forward to meeting you tomorrow.
>
> Best Regards
>
> Chris Cook
>
>
> ------------------------------
> From: frank_churchill at mac.com
> To: cojock at hotmail.com
> Subject: P2P
> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 15:55:18 +0000
>
> Dear Chris,
>
> Looking forward to meeting you tomorrow.
>
>
> I've had a chance to look at your slideshows. What you propose is not
> dissimilar to my own ideas, which in turn adopt the WIR/Bartercard model of
> multilateral barter mediated by an alternative medium of exchange (the *
> WIR*, and *Trade Pound* respectively), in which the exchange medium acts
> as a catalyst to trade within a mutual credit-structured network.
>
>
> One quick question though. Both the *WIR *and *Trade Pound* use their host
> currencies as the unit of account. While this approach has the advantage of
> simplicity and transparency for participants, it's main problem is that it
> makes the medium vulnerable to the vicissitudes of the host currency.
>
>
> The alternative is to use an different unit of account, such as basket of
> commodities, or a 'reserve' currency such as the *Terra* proposed by
> Bernard Lietaer (http://www.terratrc.org/) <http://www.terratrc.org/%29>.
>
>
> I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this issue.
>
>
> Regards,
> Frank
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
> --
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-- 
Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
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http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
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Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens

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-- 
Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
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http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
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