[p2p-research] Fwd: Launch of Abundance: The Journal of Post-Scarcity Studies, preliminary plans

Wed Mar 4 13:57:57 CET 2009

Hi Christian,

see inline

On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 6:47 PM, Christian Siefkes <christian at siefkes.net>wrote:

> Hi Michel, hi all,
>
> Michel Bauwens wrote:
> > though when you say that such trading eventually leads to capitalism, I
> > have to disagree, as the historical record shows that such markets
> > operated for thousands of years subsumed to broader self-sufficiency
> > oriented production regimes, probably also regulated to stay limited in
> > scope.
>
> yes, it's as you say: in those cases trading wasn't the main mode of
> organizing production, but subsumed, i.e. secondary to a different, primary
> mode of production (which was based on subsistence and/or on dependency
> relations, e.g. between feudal masters and serfs). That's just what I
> said--trade will only evolve into capitalism if it's the primary mode of
> organizing production.

Just to make my position clear: I am convinced that no simple work on p2p
infrastructures, by themselves, are enough to induce complete change, i.e.
internet infrastructures, smart grids, p2p money systems are insufficient by
themselves, but make sense in an integrated strategy.

Peer to peer money is of interest as it takes control in the hands of the
communities, protects local and virtual affinity communities from leakage,
and creates more equitable trading relationships; it can also fund the other
aspects of p2p infrastructures

While I agree with you on the underlying logic of exploitation by capital,
many other aspects of the superstructure have their own influence; for
example, it matters whether we have a social-democratic welfare state,
strong unions, different monetary systems; I think you are probably not
familiar with the convincing literature which shows how instrumental the
design of money is, to steer certain logics; for example, the linkage
between interest and infinite growth, and demurrage and long-term planning
...

Peer to peer money systems have to been seen in connection and conjunction
with the complementary work on open design, which undercuts the logic of
capitalism of differential productivity, as it makes it near-instantly
available to all players.

>
>
> > the context is that we now have a fully capitalist system, with a
> > particularly dysfunctional monetary and financial system, which has an
> > in-built tendency towards infinite growth and accumulation
>
> Why do you think that tendency towards infinite growth results from the
> monetary and financial system? Accumulation, i.e. turning money into more
> money, is the main driving force of any capitalist enterprise--it's the
> necessary tendency of capitalism to strive for infinite growth, because all
> participating capitalists/enterprises want to multiply their money as much
> as possible. The monetary and financial system is secondary to that--it's
> the result of capitalism's strive for infinite growth, not the cause of it.

as I said above, it may be secondary, but is not un-important; lots of
enterprises would be happy to stay at a certain level of activity, but
cannot do so now because of interest and fractional reserve system obliges
them to grow; within the context of demurrage based systems and open design
innovation, they would have much more freedom to operate on a different
logic

>
>
> > My take is that taking control of the production of money, using
> > different design principles, is a definitive advance for a community
> > using them.
>
> Hm, what purpose are you trying to achieve here? I think one of the biggest
> problems of capitalism which we have to solve if we want a better future is
> *exploitation* (in the technical sense I explained): the fact that some
> people can exploit other people's labor power, getting richer and richer
> over time, while the others stay relatively poor and powerless, and those
> that don't find somebody to exploit them are even worse of.

This is exactly what demurrage based systems aim to solve, as there is no
incentive for accumulation, but rather a counter-incentive.

>
>
> But exploitation is not a result of money (per se), it results from the
> fact
> that some people have to sell their labor power, while others are in a
> position to buy it. So I don't see how changing the way in which is money
> is
> supposed to work could help us solve this problem--either the "modified
> money" still allows the buying and selling of labor power, then the problem
> remains open and unsolved.

it's a partial solution, a relative advance, to be seen in the context of
the integrated evolution towards p2p alternatives, which it strengthens;
your system might strengthen it also, as soon as it is applied at least
somewhere

>
>
> Or the "modified money" makes the buying and selling of labor power not
> only
> impossible, but actually unnecessary--meaning that people can lead rich and
> fulfilled lives without having to do so. But then it would differ so
> radically from money-as-we-know-it that I don't think the term "money"
> could
> still be meaningfully used.
>
> So I don't see how changing money could help us. We need a deeper change, a
> change in the way production itself is organized--that entails the
> abolishment of money-as-we-know-it, but it doesn't stop there.
> My peerconomy <http://peerconomy.org/> proposal is, of course, about how
> such a non-exploitative mode of production might work, and I think that
> fostering, deepening, and extending current commons-based peer production
> practices is the most promising way to go there. (Including all the amazing
> things about open manufacturing and physical peer production discusses in
> the openmanufacturing group).

what modified p2p money does is strengthening the logic between immaterial
peer production, and the existing economy, making the latter more amenable
to live integrated lives; compare it with coops vs. for-profit companies,
the former are more in line with the ethics of peer production, and can
strengthen it; coops will be less inclined to scarcify or deplete the
commons from which they are benefitting

Michel

>
>
> Best regards
>        Christian
>
> --
> |-------- Dr. Christian Siefkes --------- christian at siefkes.net ---------
> |   Homepage: http://www.siefkes.net/   |   Blog: http://www.keimform.de/
> |   Better Bayesian Analysis:           |   Peer Production Everywhere:
> |   http://bart-project.com/            |   http://peerconomy.org/wiki/
> |------------------------------------------ OpenPGP Key ID: 0x346452D8 --
> The best things in life are always free.
>        -- Madonna
>
>
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