[p2p-research] [Open Manufacturing] Re: do we need to shift to closed systems again?

Wed Mar 4 12:17:38 CET 2009

Hi Vinay,

I understand what you're saying, but words have both a objective, and a
political meaning,

using closed in this particular context, will have the additional effect of
'closing' some minds to these otherwise necessary ideas,

Michel

On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 6:22 AM, Vinay Gupta <hexayurt at gmail.com> wrote:

> http://www.google.com/search?q=%22closed+loop+industrial+ecology%22
> C'mon guys, this is a precise term of art. It's got an exact meaning, it's
> the correct language, it exactly says what it means, which is (to a
> significant degree) what we're talking about in this specific thread.
>
> Let's not be prissy about "closed" - doors can be open or closed, systems
> can be open or closed, sometimes you want a closed system. "Open" is not a
> panacea word - it's got a precise meaning when paired with source, and
> another when paired with "loop." :-)
>
> Vinay
>
>
> --
> Vinay Gupta
> Free Science and Engineering in the Global Public Interest
>
> http://guptaoption.com/map - social project connection map
>
> http://hexayurt.com - free/open next generation human sheltering
> http://hexayurt.com/plan - the whole systems, big picture vision
>
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>
> "If it doesn't fit, force it."
>
> On Mar 1, 2009, at 6:25 PM, Samuel Rose wrote:
>
> The author that Michel quotes writes:
>
> "A closed system means no material imports, no material waste, and
> dependence on solar energy."
>
> This will not be happening in most human systems in our lifetimes, I
> contend, and that is my point. It's a dumb picture to paint.
>
> I understand closed loop, open loop, open and closed systems, etc. I have
> background in machining, electronics, and complex systems theory
>
> The point that I am making is that people will not stop:
>
>
>    1. creating material waste
>    2. importing materials
>
> But, we may *change* the way that we do 1 and 2 above.
>
> My point of contention is that thinking that people will create "closed
> systems" (even closed loop systems) is probably going to turn out to be
> wrong.
>
> What will probably happen with material waste is that it will become *food*
> for natural or technological production systems. Some of those natural
> and/or tech production systems will not necassarily be local.
>
> I think you might be surprised by what people on these lists understand.
>
> On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 12:53 PM, ben lipkowitz <fenn at sdf.lonestar.org>wrote:
>
>>
>> thanks for clearing up the confusion vinay. I think a lot of people on
>> these lists don't have a science or engineering background (can you believe
>> it?) so the phrase "closed system" or "closed loop" doesn't mean anything to
>> them.
>>
>> if you're looking for alternative words, how about "complete system"
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 1 Mar 2009, Vinay Gupta wrote:
>>
>>  closed loop: you don't dump stuff into the environment.
>>>
>>> open source: your ideas are free to propagate anywhere.
>>>
>>> Some things you want closed, some things you want open. I don't see a
>>> point of contention here.
>>>
>>> Vinay
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Vinay Gupta
>>> Free Science and Engineering in the Global Public Interest
>>>
>>> http://guptaoption.com/map - social project connection map
>>>
>>> http://hexayurt.com - free/open next generation human sheltering
>>> http://hexayurt.com/plan - the whole systems, big picture vision
>>>
>>> Gizmo Project VOIP : (USA) 775-743-1851
>>> Skype/Gizmo/Gtalk/AIM: hexayurt
>>> Twitter: @hexayurt http://twitter.com/hexayurt
>>> UK Cell : +44 (0) 0795 425 3533 / USA VOIP (+1) 775-743-1851
>>>
>>> "If it doesn't fit, force it."
>>>
>>> On Mar 1, 2009, at 4:59 PM, Samuel Rose wrote:
>>>
>>>  Yes, I mean, I definitely agree with most of what he is saying.
>>>> It's a point of contention on language.
>>>>
>>>> I think he is trying to emphasize the shift from global to local.
>>>> But, putting the metaphor of "closed" in the minds of people is
>>>> kind of a step backwards to me, like thinking that we'll start
>>>> building walls around our hamlets, and switch to fuedalism. At
>>>> least,that is the image that "closed" invokes in my mind.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think it is going to be like that. Local economies, I mean.
>>>>
>>>> I think there will actually be more connectivity among people who
>>>> operate in commons-based economies. Resources will be local.  But,
>>>> minds, communications, governance, information, knowledge, will be
>>>> open.
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 2:20 AM, Michel Bauwens
>>>> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi sam,
>>>>
>>>> I think that indeed equating local with closed is a recipe for
>>>> political disaster  and can only attract reactionary forces ...
>>>>
>>>> Michel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2/27/09, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hmmm....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think it is a real mistake to call these systems "closed".
>>>>
>>>> "Local" is better. I totally agree that we need what he is talking
>>>> about. I just think his systems-language is off.
>>>>
>>>> In fact, I think what he is talking about is what Janine Beynus
>>>> calls "Type 2" and "Type 3" systems. http://www.massivechange.com/
>>>> 2006/07/11/janine-benyus-interview-october-14-2003/
>>>>
>>>> Our systems are now largely centered around what Beynus calls "Type
>>>> 1" ecology, which is part of natural cycles. It is a mass/
>>>> monoculture system based on rapid growth. After a damaging forest
>>>> fire, this is the ecology that emerges.
>>>>
>>>> In nature, systems tend to move to towards a "permaculture", Shrubs
>>>> and then trees grow and establish a more permanent system that is
>>>> far more self sustaining. Conversion of sunlight into resources is
>>>> increased, biodiversity is increased. Much of the activity happens
>>>> "locally", but there are larger regional systems, and even global
>>>> systems which are affected by the local system, and vice-versa.
>>>> This larger regional/global system scale is something that we tend
>>>> to ignore, because it's temporal pace is different than systems
>>>> that have emerged on human-sense scales. (of course, they are
>>>> getting a lot of attention now that climate change is happening).
>>>>
>>>> There is no closed living system, including any human system, in my
>>>> opinion. People would be better off understanding the nature of
>>>> things this way, then going along thinking that what some people
>>>> describe as "local" means "closed". This may seem frivilous. But in
>>>> my opinion, it is important that people understand the nature of
>>>> what they are looking at.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:50 PM, Michel Bauwens
>>>> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Dear friends,
>>>>
>>>> I'm publishing this on march 4, http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/do-we-
>>>> need-closed-systems-for-lean-economies/2009/03/04, from the full
>>>> original at http://www.feasta.org/documents/review2/fleming.htm
>>>>
>>>> Counter-intuitively, these localization advocates propose a return
>>>> to 'closed' systems of production.
>>>>
>>>> Reactions would be most appreciated, for publication as comments on
>>>> the blog as well,
>>>>
>>>> Michel
>>>>
>>>> Do we need closed systems for lean economies?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This one is counter-intuitive to me, i.e. Irish localization
>>>> advocates are proposing a shift to closed systems of production.
>>>>
>>>> Reactions from ‘open advocates’ would be very welcome.
>>>>
>>>> David Fleming:
>>>>
>>>> “Lean thinking, adapted to this context, is about establishing and
>>>> sustaining a closed system which provides food, water, energy and
>>>> materials from local resources and, as far as possible, conserves
>>>> and renews these primary assets in the local economy. A closed
>>>> system means no material imports, no material waste, and dependence
>>>> on solar energy. Well, you cannot get completely closed systems in
>>>> human affairs, except on the scale of the planet as a whole, but,
>>>> on a local scale, you can get very much closer than we are at present.
>>>>
>>>> A closed system in the case of food requires fertility to be
>>>> retained locally - that is, not only nitrogen, phosphates and
>>>> potash - but the micronutrients too. If conserved as capital,
>>>> composted and used again and again, fertility - including human
>>>> waste - can be more than simply sustained; it can be built up
>>>> towards the extraordinarily high local yields achieved by such
>>>> virtuosos of food production as Alan Chadwick and John Jeavons.
>>>>
>>>> You don’t have to do this, quite, with water, because it rains, of
>>>> course, though we will have to get used to droughts as global
>>>> warming intensifies, but even in a rainy climate, a local economy
>>>> needs to maintain, shall we say, a conservation system in its use
>>>> of water. Among the reasons for this - first, lean production will
>>>> use aquaculture, which is a more productive food system than the
>>>> soil; secondly, permaculture, which loves closed, circular systems,
>>>> typically has a central place for water - for instance, the pond is
>>>> habitat for water weeds, that fertilise the land, that grows the
>>>> food, which is attacked by slugs, that are eaten by the ducks, that
>>>> live in the pond, and fertilise the water weeds. Water has a way of
>>>> connecting things up. One immensely effective form of it is the
>>>> Japanese Aigamo method for rice production. It can be many times
>>>> more productive, for a given area of land, than the most high-tech
>>>> agriculture.
>>>>
>>>> In the case of energy, closed systems do not really apply since
>>>> they are defined in terms of materials, and energy takes a one-way
>>>> ticket from the sun to dissipation in the form of low-level heat.
>>>> But the principle is similar, because the Lean Economy is built on
>>>> “solar string” technologies - that is, various forms of renewable
>>>> energy derived ultimately from the sun, and strung out in a
>>>> minigrid in which every member of the grid is generator, user or
>>>> storage depot as opportunity offers.
>>>>
>>>> A minigrid uses the full range of technologies including solar,
>>>> wind, water and biomass, conserving energy through the use of the
>>>> benign army of emerging energy technologies that is on the way. It
>>>> stores energy with the use of media such as hydrogen, biomass,
>>>> supercapacitors, flywheels, ceramics and pumped storage. It uses
>>>> information technology to manage demand. And the giant users of
>>>> energy - transport and industry, and houses that leak energy - are
>>>> not, and cannot be, part of that world.
>>>>
>>>> The stabilised Lean Economy gives a sharp and very ambitious
>>>> meaning to energy efficiency. Changes in behaviour, including (for
>>>> example) a drastically reduced dependency on transport, could
>>>> reduce the demand for energy-services by two thirds (a factor of
>>>> 3); and energy efficiency - the energy services provided by a
>>>> kilowatt of energy - could be improved by as much. That multiplies
>>>> up to a 90 percent improvement - or a demand for just 10 percent of
>>>> the energy we use now - and that is well within the capability of
>>>> renewables.
>>>>
>>>> Figure 6. The Carbon Budget for Domestic Tradable Quotas is defined
>>>> over ten years: the first five years (the Commitment) cannot be
>>>> changed; the second five years is set in advance but can be
>>>> revised. There is then a ten year “forecast” which gives guidance
>>>> on the scale of the reduction that can be expected in the future.
>>>> The budget represents a guarantee that reduction targets are met
>>>> and it enables people to make informed preparation for it.
>>>>
>>>> The transition will require energy rationing. There is an
>>>> electronic rationing system for energy called Domestic Tradable
>>>> Quotas (DTQs) which uses information technology to distribute fair
>>>> access to fossil fuels, guaranteeing that a year-on-year budget for
>>>> reduced consumption is achieved. The DTQ budget looks like this
>>>> (figure 6). It is the basis for a step-by-step decline in emissions
>>>> of carbon dioxide from all fossil fuels. This is, I would argue,
>>>> the only way of achieving equitable allocation of the declining
>>>> access to fuel that we will face in the near future. It will need
>>>> to be a national scheme, firmly based on a strong sense of national
>>>> solidarity. And its significance extends beyond energy. A decisive
>>>> and persistent reduction in energy use could provide the pathway by
>>>> which our present day economy can achieve the transition - a
>>>> massive achievement it would be, if it happened - to the stabilised
>>>> Lean Economy.“
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University
>>>> - http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - http://
>>>> www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>
>>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
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>>>>
>>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>>>
>>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN, http://
>>>> www.shiftn.com/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sam Rose
>>>> Social Synergy
>>>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>> AIM: Str9960
>>>> Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
>>>> skype: samuelrose
>>>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
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>>>> http://openfarmtech.org
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>>>> http://communitywiki.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Long ago, we brought you all this fire.
>>>> Do not imagine we are still chained to that rock...."
>>>>
>>>> http://notanemployee.net/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University
>>>> - http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - http://
>>>> www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>
>>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net - http://
>>>> p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>>>
>>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>>>
>>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN, http://
>>>> www.shiftn.com/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sam Rose
>>>> Social Synergy
>>>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>> AIM: Str9960
>>>> Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
>>>> skype: samuelrose
>>>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/network
>>>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>>>> http://localfoodsystems.org
>>>> http://openfarmtech.org
>>>> http://notanemployee.net
>>>> http://communitywiki.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Long ago, we brought you all this fire.
>>>> Do not imagine we are still chained to that rock...."
>>>>
>>>> http://notanemployee.net/
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
> --
> Sam Rose
> Social Synergy
> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> AIM: Str9960
> Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
> skype: samuelrose
> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> http://socialsynergyweb.org/network
> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
> http://localfoodsystems.org
> http://openfarmtech.org
> http://notanemployee.net
> http://communitywiki.org
>
>
>
>
> "Long ago, we brought you all this fire.
> Do not imagine we are still chained to that rock...."
>
> http://notanemployee.net/
>
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-- 
Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
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