[p2p-research] do we need to shift to closed systems again?

Sun Mar 1 17:59:42 CET 2009

Yes, I mean, I definitely agree with most of what he is saying. It's a point
of contention on language.

I think he is trying to emphasize the shift from global to local. But,
putting the metaphor of "closed" in the minds of people is kind of a step
backwards to me, like thinking that we'll start building walls around our
hamlets, and switch to fuedalism. At least,that is the image that "closed"
invokes in my mind.

I don't think it is going to be like that. Local economies, I mean.

I think there will actually be more connectivity among people who operate in
commons-based economies. Resources will be local.  But,  minds,
communications, governance, information, knowledge, will be open.

On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 2:20 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi sam,
>
> I think that indeed equating local with closed is a recipe for political
> disaster  and can only attract reactionary forces ...
>
> Michel
>
>
> On 2/27/09, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hmmm....
>>
>>
>> I think it is a real mistake to call these systems "closed".
>>
>> "Local" is better. I totally agree that we need what he is talking about.
>> I just think his systems-language is off.
>>
>> In fact, I think what he is talking about is what Janine Beynus calls
>> "Type 2" and "Type 3" systems.
>> http://www.massivechange.com/2006/07/11/janine-benyus-interview-october-14-2003/
>>
>> Our systems are now largely centered around what Beynus calls "Type 1"
>> ecology, which is part of natural cycles. It is a mass/monoculture system
>> based on rapid growth. After a damaging forest fire, this is the ecology
>> that emerges.
>>
>> In nature, systems tend to move to towards a "permaculture", Shrubs and
>> then trees grow and establish a more permanent system that is far more self
>> sustaining. Conversion of sunlight into resources is increased, biodiversity
>> is increased. Much of the activity happens "locally", but there are larger
>> regional systems, and even global systems which are affected by the local
>> system, and vice-versa. This larger regional/global system scale is
>> something that we tend to ignore, because it's temporal pace is different
>> than systems that have emerged on human-sense scales. (of course, they are
>> getting a lot of attention now that climate change is happening).
>>
>> There is no closed living system, including any human system, in my
>> opinion. People would be better off understanding the nature of things this
>> way, then going along thinking that what some people describe as "local"
>> means "closed". This may seem frivilous. But in my opinion, it is important
>> that people understand the nature of what they are looking at.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:50 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Dear friends,
>>>
>>> I'm publishing this on march 4,
>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/do-we-need-closed-systems-for-lean-economies/2009/03/04,
>>> from the full original at
>>> http://www.feasta.org/documents/review2/fleming.htm
>>>
>>> Counter-intuitively, these localization advocates propose a return to
>>> 'closed' systems of production.
>>>
>>> Reactions would be most appreciated, for publication as comments on the
>>> blog as well,
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>> Do we need closed systems for lean economies?<http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=2509>
>>>
>>>  This one is counter-intuitive to me, i.e. Irish localization advocates
>>> are proposing a shift to closed systems of production<http://www.feasta.org/documents/review2/fleming.htm>
>>> .
>>>
>>> Reactions from ‘open advocates’ would be very welcome.
>>>
>>> *David Fleming:*
>>>
>>> *“Lean thinking, adapted to this context, is about establishing and
>>> sustaining a closed system which provides food, water, energy and materials
>>> from local resources and, as far as possible, conserves and renews these
>>> primary assets in the local economy. A closed system means no material
>>> imports, no material waste, and dependence on solar energy. Well, you cannot
>>> get completely closed systems in human affairs, except on the scale of the
>>> planet as a whole, but, on a local scale, you can get very much closer than
>>> we are at present.*
>>>
>>> *A closed system in the case of food requires fertility to be retained
>>> locally - that is, not only nitrogen, phosphates and potash - but the
>>> micronutrients too. If conserved as capital, composted and used again and
>>> again, fertility - including human waste - can be more than simply
>>> sustained; it can be built up towards the extraordinarily high local yields
>>> achieved by such virtuosos of food production as Alan Chadwick and John
>>> Jeavons.*
>>>
>>> *You don’t have to do this, quite, with water, because it rains, of
>>> course, though we will have to get used to droughts as global warming
>>> intensifies, but even in a rainy climate, a local economy needs to maintain,
>>> shall we say, a conservation system in its use of water. Among the reasons
>>> for this - first, lean production will use aquaculture, which is a more
>>> productive food system than the soil; secondly, permaculture, which loves
>>> closed, circular systems, typically has a central place for water - for
>>> instance, the pond is habitat for water weeds, that fertilise the land, that
>>> grows the food, which is attacked by slugs, that are eaten by the ducks,
>>> that live in the pond, and fertilise the water weeds. Water has a way of
>>> connecting things up. One immensely effective form of it is the Japanese
>>> Aigamo method for rice production. It can be many times more productive, for
>>> a given area of land, than the most high-tech agriculture.*
>>>
>>> *In the case of energy, closed systems do not really apply since they
>>> are defined in terms of materials, and energy takes a one-way ticket from
>>> the sun to dissipation in the form of low-level heat. But the principle is
>>> similar, because the Lean Economy is built on “solar string” technologies -
>>> that is, various forms of renewable energy derived ultimately from the sun,
>>> and strung out in a minigrid in which every member of the grid is generator,
>>> user or storage depot as opportunity offers.*
>>>
>>> *A minigrid uses the full range of technologies including solar, wind,
>>> water and biomass, conserving energy through the use of the benign army of
>>> emerging energy technologies that is on the way. It stores energy with the
>>> use of media such as hydrogen, biomass, supercapacitors, flywheels, ceramics
>>> and pumped storage. It uses information technology to manage demand. And the
>>> giant users of energy - transport and industry, and houses that leak energy
>>> - are not, and cannot be, part of that world.*
>>>
>>> *The stabilised Lean Economy gives a sharp and very ambitious meaning to
>>> energy efficiency. Changes in behaviour, including (for example) a
>>> drastically reduced dependency on transport, could reduce the demand for
>>> energy-services by two thirds (a factor of 3); and energy efficiency - the
>>> energy services provided by a kilowatt of energy - could be improved by as
>>> much. That multiplies up to a 90 percent improvement - or a demand for just
>>> 10 percent of the energy we use now - and that is well within the capability
>>> of renewables.*
>>>
>>> *Figure 6. The Carbon Budget for Domestic Tradable Quotas is defined
>>> over ten years: the first five years (the Commitment) cannot be changed; the
>>> second five years is set in advance but can be revised. There is then a ten
>>> year “forecast” which gives guidance on the scale of the reduction that can
>>> be expected in the future. The budget represents a guarantee that reduction
>>> targets are met and it enables people to make informed preparation for it.
>>> *
>>>
>>> *The transition will require energy rationing. There is an electronic
>>> rationing system for energy called Domestic Tradable Quotas (DTQs) which
>>> uses information technology to distribute fair access to fossil fuels,
>>> guaranteeing that a year-on-year budget for reduced consumption is achieved.
>>> The DTQ budget looks like this (figure 6). It is the basis for a
>>> step-by-step decline in emissions of carbon dioxide from all fossil fuels.
>>> This is, I would argue, the only way of achieving equitable allocation of
>>> the declining access to fuel that we will face in the near future. It will
>>> need to be a national scheme, firmly based on a strong sense of national
>>> solidarity. And its significance extends beyond energy. A decisive and
>>> persistent reduction in energy use could provide the pathway by which our
>>> present day economy can achieve the transition - a massive achievement it
>>> would be, if it happened - to the stabilised Lean Economy.*“
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>
>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>>
>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>>
>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sam Rose
>> Social Synergy
>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>> AIM: Str9960
>> Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
>> skype: samuelrose
>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/network
>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>> http://localfoodsystems.org
>> http://openfarmtech.org
>> http://notanemployee.net
>> http://communitywiki.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Long ago, we brought you all this fire.
>> Do not imagine we are still chained to that rock...."
>>
>> http://notanemployee.net/
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>
> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>
> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>
> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
> http://www.shiftn.com/
>

-- 
Sam Rose
Social Synergy
Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
AIM: Str9960
Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
skype: samuelrose
email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
http://socialsynergyweb.org/network
http://socialmediaclassroom.com
http://localfoodsystems.org
http://openfarmtech.org
http://notanemployee.net
http://communitywiki.org

"Long ago, we brought you all this fire.
Do not imagine we are still chained to that rock...."

http://notanemployee.net/
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