[p2p-research] People happier under Soviet-styled socialism?

Fri Jun 12 06:14:41 CEST 2009

I think there are different types of capitalisms, different in the way they
limit the amount of surplus going to the top layers.

As long as they are inevitable, I prefer the 'social capitalisms' (each in
their own way) of Europe and Asia, rather than the anglo-saxon model and its
unregulated exploitation.

Russia is a difficult case, it is of course highly corrupt and undemocratic,
but the question is if the reconstitution of a stronger state under Putin
was at all evitable after neoliberal shock therapy?

The great majority of the people obviously welcomed it, seeing it as much
preferable to the privatisation of the country under oligarchs and private
mafias.

In a way it is like feudal consolidation under a strong king, which under
certain circumstances may be seen as preferable to inter-feudal feuding ...

Michel

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 8:56 AM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Michel,
>
> I think Russia's problem is far more tied to corruption than market
> ideologues.  But that's a quibble.  It is a grave disaster now...and
> probably more threat to the world than it ever was as the USSR. It has a
> completely corrupt power structure now.
>
> I still feel the great issues are absence of democracy and corruption.
> You'll have to convince me that rampant capitalism is one of the world's
> great evils.  Evil perhaps, but well down the list.
>
> Ryan
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 10:50 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hi Ryan,
>>
>> There were alternatives to neoliberal shock therapy, and it has been
>> practiced with relative success with China, i.e. a more careful transition
>> towards market forms with smart regulation instead of a wholesale sell out
>> to 'free market ideologues' ...
>>
>> In fact, there is a lot of evidence that it is the countries refusing this
>> type of advice, like Korea for example, or Malaysia after the Asian
>> financial crisis, that have done well,
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 8:48 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> I have met many people who lived under authoritarian regimes in Poland,
>>> USSR, Romania (now family members) and other Comecon countries.  To the one
>>> they all said the former system destroyed lives, hope and any sense of
>>> fairness.  I've never heard any variance from that story, myself.
>>>
>>> That said, clearly many were left behind.  Now they are starting to hate
>>> and seeth with anger--just as whites in the Southern US did after the advent
>>> of civil rights.  I must admit it is a bit frightening to have seen the EU
>>> parliament turn so sharply to the right.  Nationalism and hate seem to be
>>> alive and well in Europe just at the time the US seems to be moving away
>>> from those trends for the first time in a long while.
>>>
>>> I would contend it isn't capitalism or neoliberalism, but social collapse
>>> caused by bankrupt governments and corruption that causes few services to
>>> reach the needy.  Development was the necessary answer to tractor factories
>>> building machines no one wants and cities relying on one industry.
>>> Capitalism of one sort or another was the only way out of that.  Government
>>> failed people in the transitions, but the governments were so bankrupted by
>>> sloppy socialism that I'm not sure what alternative could have been used.
>>> In addition, given the strong reliance on the state, there were no civil
>>> society entities to rely upon.
>>>
>>> Ryan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 1:35 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm not really surprised, having spent many years holidaying in Romania,
>>>> where my parents built unofficial relations over the years ...
>>>>
>>>> Yes, the state was hateful, but 'average' people could ignore it to a
>>>> great degree and lived there lives not working very hard, with time for
>>>> family and friendships, and all kinds of unofficial exchange networks ...
>>>>
>>>> I think the article is misleading as it uses democracy as a
>>>> yardstick,but that's not the issue, capitalism is, especially the brand that
>>>> replaced the system, i.e. neoliberal shock therapy.
>>>>
>>>> Let's not forget Russia lost 15 years a life expectancy in a decade, a
>>>> dramatic decline in living standards, with a wholesale abandonment of the
>>>> safety net well below European welfare standards ... At the same time, there
>>>> was a straight looting of state property, while on a local level, mafia
>>>> organizations took over ...
>>>>
>>>> It's only in the last few years that things have picked up ...
>>>>
>>>> This being said, if you were young and dynamic, and hated the old
>>>> system, then the new could be experienced as a liberation, as long as it was
>>>> working for you (but see in east germany for very dissatisfied youth turning
>>>> to the extreme right)
>>>>
>>>> I'm also surmising that some countries, especially those that had strong
>>>> civil societies before  the stalinist takeovers, did better in their
>>>> adjustments, i.e. the baltic states, poland, czechia,
>>>>
>>>> Michel
>>>>
>>>>   On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 4:20 AM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.labspaces.net/97978/Are_socialists_happier_than_capitalists
>>>>> _
>>>>>
>>>>> It may have something to do with where you start, and then where you
>>>>> test, but even still, I am frankly surprised.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ryan
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>
>>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
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>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>
>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>
>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>
>
>

-- 
Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
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Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens

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