[p2p-research] Why Post-Capitalism is Rubbish

Mon Jun 8 10:58:45 CEST 2009

No link from me either,

but I would say that for me capitalism is based on:

1) the separation of the means of production from the producers themselves,
so that they have to hire themselves out to the owners of them

2) a system based on capital accumulation and profit maximisation, so that
there can be no direct production of use(ful) value, only indirect
production for exchange value, which may not be of real use but is pushed
out in order to make a profit

3) a system which is solely based on the self interest of the parties
involved in the exchange, and therefore does not fully recognize the real
social inputs, and externalizes the damage it produces

Michel

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 1:55 PM, Chris Watkins
<chriswaterguy at appropedia.org>wrote:

> Capitalism is very widely used to mean something similar to a free market
> economy. I'm aware there are different meanings given to the word, but a
> more precise term would be useful.
>
> Could you give a link to a definition for what you're referring to?
>
> On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 16:55, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hi Chris,
>>
>> if you really take this definition seriously, then you can discount huge
>> swats of our economic life, because fraud is endemic in it ... in the real
>> world, it would be hard to find any economic activity without fraud in it
>> ... to some degree or other ...
>>
>> in fact, what is described by wikipedia is markets, not capitalism which
>> is a very specific system
>>
>> it all depends on your definition's of course, but large swats of the
>> Chinese economy are still steered by the state, and none of the growth
>> stories in East Asia, have followed the neoliberal recommendations ... for
>> example, Malaysia who most successfully recuperated from the Asian crisis in
>> 1998, did so by explicitely rejecting the neoliberal recommendations of the
>> IMF
>>
>> And no, in Africa the IMF, while top down impositions, has not used a
>> central planning approach to economics, but it forced government to cut
>> social budgets, sell state assets to the private sector, etc ... none of it
>> related to central planning
>
>
> I use "central planning" in the sense that a remote power-holder at the
> center is telling those under their authority or influence what to do, with
> little regard for the local conditions. I don't mean to imply that it's the
> same as centrally planned economies such as the Soviet Union, or China under
> Mao.
>
> Chris
>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 2:16 PM, Chris Watkins <
>> chriswaterguy at appropedia.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for raising this, Ryan.
>>>
>>> Checking Wikipedia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism>:
>>> "Capitalism is an economic system in which wealth, and the means of
>>> producing wealth, are privately owned.[1][2] Through capitalism, the land,
>>> labor, and capital are owned, operated, and traded for the purpose of
>>> generating profits, without force or fraud, by private individuals either
>>> singly or jointly,[3][4] and investments, distribution, income, production,
>>> pricing and supply of goods, commodities and services are determined by
>>> voluntary private decision in a market economy.[5]"
>>>
>>> So, it looks to me like capitalism in the broad sense includes the
>>> Grameen model, and the models of innovation and micro-entrepreneurship
>>> advocated by the development consultant and writer Paul Polak<http://www.paulpolak.com/html/paul.html>.
>>> They are based on markets, incentives and property rights, and they allow
>>> individuals to work hard and reap the benefits. Likewise for China's
>>> economy, since they reformed and allowed people to create wealth for
>>> themselves, leading to a long economic boom. None of these are not
>>> neo-liberal, and they may not fit the capitalism of some (e.g., proponents
>>> of a "pure" lassez faire capitalism) and they do have a more complex view of
>>> the way institutions can operate effectively to serve society. I would have
>>> called them capitalist - I don't want to argue about that definition (which
>>> may be mistaken) but I'd like it if we all used the same definitions.
>>>
>>> If we're talking about some kind of future that *includes* such
>>> approaches, I'd rather we used a term other than post-capitalism, or at
>>> least that someone would post a clear definition, broken down into points,
>>> so that we could know what we're agreeing or disagreeing.
>>>
>>> Re Africa's poor growth: Ironically, the Western powers through the World
>>> Bank and IMF, in enforcing neoliberal policies and "structural adjustment,"
>>> have taken a top down, central planning approach to economics, which is
>>> almost always a bad idea, I suspect. This is a bigger issue than I could try
>>> to address in a short email, but I find William Easterly's "White Man's
>>> Burden" to be insightful - he argues that "Searchers" get results by solving
>>> problems in a piecemeal way; the "Planners" set big goals that they don't
>>> achieve. He's especially critical of the IMF, Jeffrey Sachs, and government
>>> aid programs in general. (Or you could try Collier's "The Bottom Billion"
>>> for a more balanced perspective.)
>>>
>>>
>>> Re the financial crisis and what it says about financial markets, I think
>>> this reflects on the crony capitalism of Bush's America, rather than
>>> captalism or even neo-liberalism. I have some comments, but I'll run them by
>>> a better-informed friend before sharing them here.
>>>
>>> Chris
>>>
>>> On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 11:05, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Ryan,
>>>>
>>>> I'm adding comments inline,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I agree that continued material growth in conventional terms is
>>>>> impossible at worst, and ill-advised at best.  But continued wealth
>>>>> accumulation is not.  Wealth can be attained through technologies, free
>>>>> time, etc.  One can imagine capitalism shifting to a 4 day week, for
>>>>> instance.  Real income might decrease, but happiness and satisfaction might
>>>>> radically increase.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are two issues: we will be facing really serious challenges around
>>>> climate change, and the depletion of easy energy and others materials we
>>>> have relied on. I agree with you that we can probably go through this, but
>>>> the future is open at best, and what certainly won't work is business as
>>>> usual under the system that prevailed from the 1980's onwards.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We have the capacity to build whole cities in Africa with green power
>>>>> where there will be condos and movie theatres and bars.  Perhaps these will
>>>>> be in orbit or extend to other planets.  5/6 of the world is the oceans...we
>>>>> barely know what is beneath them.  One can as easily imagine floating cities
>>>>> as much as one can imagine post-capitalist frameworks.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We have had the technical capacity to do some of these things for the
>>>> last 50-60 years, but we haven't, despite the sole dominance of capitalism
>>>> since 1989, and Africa is worse of now than it was in the seventies. So
>>>> clearly, technical potential alone is not enough.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Since I believe that  you cannot prove the points above, I think
>>>>>> 'eternal capitalism' is a lot more utopian than positions that believe that
>>>>>> change and transformation are eternal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Eternal is of course a long time.  I'm content to discuss my normal
>>>>> lifetime or my children's.  My youngest son is 8.  Let's say he lives a
>>>>> normal and healthy life to...say, 108.  That's another 100 years...2109.
>>>>> For rounding, I'll talk about the period between now and 2100.  I can easily
>>>>> imagine in that period a rapid growth of human wealth particularly if
>>>>> populations are brought under control or even decline slightly as they are
>>>>> in much of Russo-Europe.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I can also imagine that, as I can the opposite ... What is more
>>>> difficult to imagine is the continued growth of material growth under the
>>>> western model, and it's extremely high price related to biospheric
>>>> integrity.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The current overflow of financial assets is parasitic and is harming
>>>>>> the productive economy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I couldn't disagree more.  The greatest innovation in history is
>>>>> financial engineering.  It has unleashed everything from Grameen Bank to
>>>>> diversified financial money centers that hold politicians in check and
>>>>> assure government debts and currencies are properly managed.  Is it
>>>>> perfect?  Of course not.  But it is highly successful, employs millions and
>>>>> will grow before it shrinks.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I find it hard to comprehend how you can put on the same line the
>>>> financial engineering of Wall Street banks, which has led to the stagnation
>>>> of western countries (the countries in East Asia that succeeded did so by
>>>> explicitely rejecting that model, i.e. China, Korea, Malaysia, etc..) and
>>>> the current systemic shock, which even Alan Greenspan is now disavowing. ((I
>>>> can't understand how you can justify this, when even its more ardent
>>>> supporters are abandoning this model, apart from CNBC, this is becoming a
>>>> very minoritarian view, how can you call that a success, that really beats
>>>> me))
>>>>
>>>> So, to continue my too long sentence ... I find  it hard to comprehend
>>>> putting on the same line neoliberalism and the Grameen reforms. What Yunus
>>>> has done goes completely against every of the principles of neoliberalism:
>>>> he doesn't want profit maximisation, the money is managed collectively, it
>>>> is directed at the very poor who have no purchasing power, and the social
>>>> goal of the enterprise is primary. These are two very different animals. In
>>>> fact, Yunus and other peer-informed market ways  turn capitalism on its
>>>> head, and are therefore already signposts of post-capitalism.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> Capitalism hasn't been about commodities since World War II.  Still,
>>>>> there are lots of things made of sand and graphite that tons of people
>>>>> want.  There are things made of mud and cement that people want.  We have no
>>>>> serious shortages of steel, bamboo, ocean water, silicon, carbon, soil,
>>>>> etc.  We can make computers for everyone and software to run on them and
>>>>> clean power to drive them.  There is huge room for expansion.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There is only room for expansion in an age of climate change, if we can
>>>> make material production sustainable, otherwise, it is suicide. We will have
>>>> to make choices. High tech is absolutely unsustainable now, but since it has
>>>> a leveraging effect on global collective intelligence, it is so crucial for
>>>> developing humanity's challenges that it is one of the choices that I would
>>>> argue we need to make.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3. Most of Africa and large portions of Asia including China are
>>>>>>> still growing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It all depends when you start counting ... If you start from the 80's:
>>>>>> Africa's development has been catastrophic, Latin America has stagnated, and
>>>>>> China has never practiced neoliberal recommendations. In the heart of the
>>>>>> West, the part going to labour has declined, and working wages have
>>>>>> stagnated since the 70s.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I am willing to accept that median wages in the US have been about the
>>>>> same as they were in 1990, but look what you can buy for those
>>>>> wages...amazing entertainment, powerful communications, great mobility.  I
>>>>> certainly wouldn't want to go back to 1970 or 1980 with my same relative
>>>>> pay.  We are vastly wealthier now.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Some things have progressed, but some other aspects of human social life
>>>> have declined. To obtain that wealth, it is now necessary for two people to
>>>> work, when before one was enough.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 4. There are real signs that the green capitalism is starting to take
>>>>>>> off.  Last year there was more increase in alternative energy production in
>>>>>>> the US than in all other forms of energy production (including nuclear
>>>>>>> power.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, but keeping monopoly IP in this sector could represent a very
>>>>>> serious problem for continued innovation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Possibly, but I doubt it.  Monopoliies are relatively rare.  They
>>>>> matter, yes, but small business has been the dominant sector of employment
>>>>> growth in the US for a generation.  No reason to think the same will not be
>>>>> true throughout the world.  We are in the age of small businesses.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Monopolies aren't rare, but the dominant fact of our current economy.
>>>> There is no single sector which is not dominated by 2-3 main players. SME's
>>>> are important, but they don't control any market.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes but imagining a Euro-styled union system in China is like imagining
>>>>> post-capitalism in the US or Canada or Japan.  It might be a dreamy vision,
>>>>> but the reality we both know is something radically different, and will
>>>>> remain so. India even more so.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> One look at the history of China shows a dramatic series of upheavals.
>>>> The current model will be radically challenged when it ceases to deliver the
>>>> goods, and a new social compact will have to be formulated for continued
>>>> growth.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Argentina went bankrupt because it became socialist.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That is historically totally false. Argentina followed the neoliberal
>>>> recommendations to the letter, and Kirchner, a very moderate social
>>>> democratic, only came to power after the breakdown. Whatever happened after
>>>> the breakdown and the reconstitution, wasn't remotely socialist by any
>>>> definition I know of. So what is your definition of socialism??
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The same is happening to Venezuela.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The situation in Venezuela is mixed for the moment, but poverty has
>>>> dramatically declined under Chavez, after 25 years of total stagnation under
>>>> neoliberalism. The jury is still out on Chavez.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My point is that I don't see dramatic change coming soon.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you look at 1929, or even the consequences of the previous
>>>> archeo-liberal crash of 1893, you can see it takes a few years, but
>>>> instability and dramatic change has been historically associated with Sudden
>>>> System Shocks. What makes you so confident in business as usual, when even
>>>> the neoliberal elite no longer holds that view?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> Specifically, I think the socialist blend that seems to pervade a lot
>>>>> of our discussions is an unrealistically utopian.  P2P can inform a more
>>>>> just society, bring assets to the disadvantaged, etc. but it is not a
>>>>> replacement system for markets.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well I think it is a systemic change. Initially, like the serf-based
>>>> system under slavery, and the capitalist seedform under feudalism, it is
>>>> used to strengthen the old system in crisis, but ultimately, as I said in
>>>> the beginning of my first answer, an infinite material growth system cannot
>>>> last.
>>>>
>>>> And I think it is a priority to find ways of growth that are sustainable
>>>> and given the global challenges, will necessity a quantum jump in
>>>> participation and collective intelligence.
>>>>
>>>> Michel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Chris Watkins
>>>
>>> Appropedia.org - Sharing knowledge to build rich, sustainable lives.
>>>
>>> identi.ca/appropedia / twitter.com/appropedia
>>> blogs.appropedia.org
>>>
>>> I like this: five.sentenc.es
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>
>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>
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>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Chris Watkins
>
> Appropedia.org - Sharing knowledge to build rich, sustainable lives.
>
> identi.ca/appropedia / twitter.com/appropedia
> blogs.appropedia.org
>
> I like this: five.sentenc.es
>

-- 
Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
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