[p2p-research] discussing money on ning

Sat Jun 6 06:12:24 CEST 2009

Hi Joseph,

Would it be possible to write up a little status report on opencoin,
both for our wiki and blog? Seems like it's making sufficient progress for
an update.

Michel

On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 1:49 AM, Josef Davies-Coates <
josef at uniteddiversity.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> There has definitely been an upsurge of people working on internet based
> solutions following the decent economic troubles.
>
> I'm pleased to report that this includes my colleague and friend Joerg in
> the OpenCoin team. He has been making some great progress recently :)
>
> If you've got an s60 v3 or above operating system on your mobile phone you
> can have a play with a real working mobile phone implementation:
> http://opencoin.org/Members/jhb/installing-the-mobile-phone-wallet
>
> The first stages of the OpenCoin project were funded by the London
> Development Agency are we got some great info from academic legal and
> cryptocraphic experts.
>
> The legal report we got will help us to navigate these muddy waters. :)
>
> In short, once we get a load of people using OpenCoin we'll most likely
> have to become or partner with an authorised e-money issuer. As a small
> operation we can potentially (probably) get exemption from regulation so
> long as we stay within certain limits.
>
> One of the problems with internet (and local) complementary/ community
> currencies is their redeemability. For currencies to scale users need to be
> able to actually use them to get things they want.
>
> Our plan is to initially work with our friends and colleagues at
> http://www.the-hub.net - The Hub already has a network of coworking spaces
> for social enterprises in major cities around the world. If they start
> selling Hub vouchers, redeemable for member services (i.e. coworking office,
> meeting, event space, online servies), then we believe that the 3000 odd
> social entreprenuer members of The Hub network will willingly except them
> for their products and services too. :)
>
> Another issue with all currencies is trust. Hub spaces are real physical
> communities - lots of the members know and trust each other, and they are
> linked globally. So that should help. In time we'll also build on stuff like
> http://trustmap.plexnet.org that other friends are working on :)
>
> In short, we believe an OpenCoin powered digital currency for Hub members
> has great potential. :)
>
> Watch this space...
>
> Smiles,
>
> Josef.
>
> PS - I agree with Chris (and I think Tom too) that what really needs to
> "back" community currencies are land and energy infrastructure*. Once people
> can pay rent and buy energy with community currency then we're getting
> somewhere. Hub members paying for rent of Hub spaces is a nice step in this
> direction :)
>
> PPS - I'm going to set-up a Resilient Communities Fund, which will be like
> a global pariticipative budget for investing in land and infrastructure
> projects - ultimately this will help (networks of) communites launch
> scalable currencies :)
>
>
> 2009/6/4 Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>
>>  thanks sepp, I'm copying this on the blog for the 6th, I am very
>> curiouis as to the reactions by Thomas?
>>
>> Michel
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 5:16 PM, Sepp Hasslberger <sepp at lastrega.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Michel,
>>>
>>> I think I have a good idea of why internet based currencies are much
>>> slower to take off than local ones.
>>>
>>>
>>> As long as you're local, there is a much closer connection between all
>>> the participants in a monetary scheme. Closer connection means close-knit
>>> community, means backup between the members in case of trouble.
>>>
>>>
>>> Potential trouble for any alternative currency comes from the
>>> institutions that detain the monopoly of currencies - banks, central banks,
>>> and ultimately governments. They will tolerate local currencies that have no
>>> potential to change the status quo. They will interfere when things get too
>>> successful, as they did in the historical Woergl experiment.
>>>
>>>
>>> Jumping from local to internet-based there are two important changes. For
>>> one, the close connection (and willingness to stand up for each other) that
>>> is characteristic of local currencies is likely absent. But even more
>>> importantly, number two: Internet based currencies have game changing
>>> potential. As soon as they look like they are seriously gaining adherents
>>> and are being used as an alternative to official currencies, the heavy hand
>>> of "justice" comes down on them. Witness the recent closing down of some of
>>> the gold-backed internet currencies that were being used to trade in a more
>>> generalized way.
>>>
>>>
>>> So the hurdles that an internet-based currency must take to successfully
>>> operate and stay in operation are much more serious than the ones that a
>>> local currency has to overcome. I think that is why we see a relatively slow
>>> adoption of such currencies.
>>>
>>>
>>> Kind regards
>>> Sepp
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  On 14/mar/09, at 06:01, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>>>
>>>  Dear Sepp,
>>>
>>> For a long time, I have been surprised on the slow uptake on
>>> internet-based monetary systems, so unlike the steady adoption of cc's in
>>> regional and urban settings ...
>>>
>>> This inititaive for the Open Source Hardware Bank is the most significant
>>> development I have seen in a long time, and really has the potential to
>>> jumpstart the whole physical peer economy.
>>>
>>> I think we should follow it closely, and perhaps, just in case they don't
>>> know the previous experience, point them to successful experiments like WIR
>>> and the JAK bank, from which they could learn.
>>>
>>> A full article on their bank, with their logo and physical certificate as
>>> illustrations, would be much appreciated, if you have the time.
>>>
>>> The links for our friends in cc:
>>>
>>> - http://www.oshwbank.org/
>>>
>>> -
>>> http://antipastohw.blogspot.com/2009/03/introducing-open-source-hardware.html
>>>
>>> - http://www.liquidware.com/shop/show/IBILL/Open+Source+I-Bills
>>>
>>> Our own first treatment:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/the-economics-of-open-source-hardware-need-a-oshw-bank/2009/03/14
>>>
>>>
>>> *The economics of open source hardware need a OSHW bank*<http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/the-economics-of-open-source-hardware-need-a-oshw-bank/2009/03/14>
>>> *[image: photo of Michel Bauwens]*
>>>
>>> Michel Bauwens
>>> 14th March 2009
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Open Source HardWare requires a lot of time and it takes money too. It
>>> can’t work with only one, and not the other. If you throw a lot of time at
>>> making a project schematic, it doesn’t become a real thing unless you also
>>> throw money at it. Likewise, you can’t just throw money at building a
>>> project or paying someone to build it, without also taking the time to
>>> design it, architect it, and eventually code it and debug it.
>>>
>>> The blog of Liquidware<http://antipastohw.blogspot.com/2009/02/zen-and-art-of-open-source-hardware.html>,
>>> an open source electronics shop that’s part of the Arduino ecology, examines
>>> the economics of open source hardware, in a manner that shows the rapid
>>> maturation of the field.
>>>
>>> First, the article shows the similarities and differences between the
>>> traditional and the open source economy, summarized in a great graphic<http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_pGsJFsc5Buc/SZoiwg32iiI/AAAAAAAAALs/STviWAFOMYs/s1600-h/OSHW1.jpg>,
>>> and then delves into what differentiates making software from making open
>>> hardware.
>>>
>>> [image: open hardware economics]
>>>
>>> Essentially, if open source software is based on time, open source
>>> hardware needs both time, and money, the latter being necessary for actually
>>> making the physical products:
>>>
>>> This “cluster”-based theory of Open Source Software and Hardware treats
>>> the Open Source Economy as a collection, or centralization of time and
>>> money. To have Open Source Software, you need clusters of time. To have Open
>>> Source Hardware, you need clusters of time and money.
>>>
>>> *Where can this money come from?*
>>>
>>> The author writes that:
>>>
>>> *“When money comes from individuals, it needs coordination mechanisms to
>>> make sure individuals are repaid, or get their money’s worth. When it comes
>>> from institutions, it often needs to support a cause or mission. And
>>> finally, when it comes from companies, it usually needs to make a profit.
>>> This last one is particularly nagging in the Open Source Hardware economy,
>>> because it suggests someone is making money off of Open Source. This tends
>>> to contradict the notion of the “free as in beer” ideas of Open Source. But
>>> is it necessary? Open Source Software can work without the presence of a
>>> profit-making corporate entity. Can the same be true for hardware?”*
>>>
>>> What matters is that, if a company needs to be involved, it has the right
>>> ethics compatible with a community of volunteers working for free, there are
>>> indeed, good and bad profits, or good and bad reasons to make profit, as
>>> summarized in a graphic<http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_pGsJFsc5Buc/SZoiwxFd4RI/AAAAAAAAAL8/t6Yp6NIrjXc/s400/OSHW3.jpg>
>>> .
>>>
>>> The author explains:
>>>
>>> *“By this framework, profit-making is a good thing when it’s maximized
>>> and re-invested back to the community. On the other hand, profit-making is a
>>> “bad” thing (or “less good”) when it funds traditional business model
>>> reasons, like mitigating risk, distribution, portfolio, or scaling. Why?
>>> Because each of these business models involve taking advantage of the
>>> efforts of others to make profit. The profit doesn’t make its way back to
>>> the individuals who contributed, so it’s “less good” than a system that
>>> directly rewards and incents individuals and their time. This assumes that
>>> the end-state desired outcome is a system in which individuals are directly
>>> contributing to a shared community, and collecting as many of the benefits
>>> of their time as possible.”*
>>>
>>> The next point is that, if such an ecology of ethical OSHW businesses is
>>> to form, it needs a certain amount of financial backing, just as ordinary
>>> start-ups would. Such an institutional assistance can come through a, still
>>> to be created, Open Source Hardware Bank<http://www.p2pfoundation.net/Open_Source_Hardware_Bank>
>>> !
>>>
>>> In a follow-up article<http://antipastohw.blogspot.com/2009/03/introducing-open-source-hardware.html>,
>>> this idea is examined in greater detail:
>>>
>>> As proposed by the Liquidware Antipasto blog:
>>>
>>> *“The Open Source Hardware Bank will work to eliminate the scaling and
>>> quantity pricing problem for OSHW projects by funding the build of 2x the
>>> quantity of any Open Source Hardware product. That means, if a project has
>>> found a way to find 10 potential buyers, the bank will put down the money
>>> needed to fund 10 more, for a total of 20 products. If a project has found
>>> 25 community members to buy in, the bank will fund another 25, to bring the
>>> total quantity down to 50. This should reduce the unit costs by around
>>> 10-30% of any hardware project, and in the case of the Illuminato, it’ll
>>> reduce costs by almost 40%! *
>>>
>>> In return, anyone who pitches in money to the bank will get a modest and
>>> sustainable return on their investment, somewhere between 5-10%. Normally,
>>> this wouldn’t be a huge amount, but given what I’ve learned about the “real”
>>> economy recently, 30-50% return on investment may never have really existed
>>> in the first place, let alone represented “sustainable growth.” This money
>>> gets paid back and cashed out when the rest of the inventory is bought as a
>>> check that Justin, Andrew, or I write and sign personally.
>>>
>>> So Andrew, Justin, and I will see to it that the Open Source Hardware
>>> Bank does not default, and each of us will guarantee every investment. Maybe
>>> you could call it AJMIC (instead of FDIC insured)! No one is trying to
>>> become a millionaire (without lots of hard work), a high paid investment
>>> banker (ugh), or Alan Greenspan (was he ever right about anything?). We’re
>>> just trying to build a sustainable little financial institution to help Open
>>> Source Hardware DIY’ers. Consequently, we’re also human and realize the
>>> limits of spare time, so no one’s rushing out to build 50 projects, just 1
>>> or 2 or 3 at a time will be perfectly fine, thank you!”
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3/13/09, Sepp Hasslberger <sepp at lastrega.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I looked at their page and like it. There is a lot of potential there.
>>>>
>>>> Will follow that one up as well, at least with a comment on the
>>>> questions the guy asks in the article.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sepp
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  On 13/mar/09, at 11:17, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>>>>
>>>> yes, thanks, and please do have a look at that open source bank, I'm
>>>> rather enthusiastic about their seriousness ... they have a logo, physical
>>>> certificates, and already a queu of jobs ...
>>>>
>>>> Michel
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 4:58 PM, Sepp Hasslberger <sepp at lastrega.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Michel,
>>>>>
>>>>> yes, I will keep it around and re-post after a while on the regular
>>>>> blog. Maybe we get some more data in comments...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sepp
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  On 13/mar/09, at 09:31, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Sepp,
>>>>>
>>>>> this would also be a good article to post to our regular blog!!
>>>>>
>>>>> i.e.
>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/discussing-money-on-ning
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps in a week, after you had some reactions, after the 17th, you
>>>>> can repost it, eventually amended?
>>>>>
>>>>> Michel
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>>
>>>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>>>>
>>>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>>>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>
>>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>>>
>>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>>>
>>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>
>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>>
>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>>
>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>
>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>
>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Josef Davies-Coates
> 07974 88 88 95
> http://uniteddiversity.com
> Together We Have Everything
>

-- 
Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
http://p2pfoundation.ning.com

Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens

The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
http://www.shiftn.com/
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