[p2p-research] discussing money on ning

Thu Jun 4 12:25:09 CEST 2009

thanks sepp, I'm copying this on the blog for the 6th, I am very curiouis as
to the reactions by Thomas?

Michel

On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 5:16 PM, Sepp Hasslberger <sepp at lastrega.com> wrote:

> Dear Michel,
> I think I have a good idea of why internet based currencies are much slower
> to take off than local ones.
>
> As long as you're local, there is a much closer connection between all the
> participants in a monetary scheme. Closer connection means close-knit
> community, means backup between the members in case of trouble.
>
> Potential trouble for any alternative currency comes from the institutions
> that detain the monopoly of currencies - banks, central banks, and
> ultimately governments. They will tolerate local currencies that have no
> potential to change the status quo. They will interfere when things get too
> successful, as they did in the historical Woergl experiment.
>
> Jumping from local to internet-based there are two important changes. For
> one, the close connection (and willingness to stand up for each other) that
> is characteristic of local currencies is likely absent. But even more
> importantly, number two: Internet based currencies have game changing
> potential. As soon as they look like they are seriously gaining adherents
> and are being used as an alternative to official currencies, the heavy hand
> of "justice" comes down on them. Witness the recent closing down of some of
> the gold-backed internet currencies that were being used to trade in a more
> generalized way.
>
> So the hurdles that an internet-based currency must take to successfully
> operate and stay in operation are much more serious than the ones that a
> local currency has to overcome. I think that is why we see a relatively slow
> adoption of such currencies.
>
> Kind regards
> Sepp
>
>
> On 14/mar/09, at 06:01, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>
> Dear Sepp,
>
> For a long time, I have been surprised on the slow uptake on internet-based
> monetary systems, so unlike the steady adoption of cc's in regional and
> urban settings ...
>
> This inititaive for the Open Source Hardware Bank is the most significant
> development I have seen in a long time, and really has the potential to
> jumpstart the whole physical peer economy.
>
> I think we should follow it closely, and perhaps, just in case they don't
> know the previous experience, point them to successful experiments like WIR
> and the JAK bank, from which they could learn.
>
> A full article on their bank, with their logo and physical certificate as
> illustrations, would be much appreciated, if you have the time.
>
> The links for our friends in cc:
>
> - http://www.oshwbank.org/
>
> -
> http://antipastohw.blogspot.com/2009/03/introducing-open-source-hardware.html
>
> - http://www.liquidware.com/shop/show/IBILL/Open+Source+I-Bills
>
> Our own first treatment:
>
>
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/the-economics-of-open-source-hardware-need-a-oshw-bank/2009/03/14
>
>
> *The economics of open source hardware need a OSHW bank*<http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/the-economics-of-open-source-hardware-need-a-oshw-bank/2009/03/14>
> *[image: photo of Michel Bauwens]*
> Michel Bauwens
> 14th March 2009
>
>
>  Open Source HardWare requires a lot of time and it takes money too. It
> can’t work with only one, and not the other. If you throw a lot of time at
> making a project schematic, it doesn’t become a real thing unless you also
> throw money at it. Likewise, you can’t just throw money at building a
> project or paying someone to build it, without also taking the time to
> design it, architect it, and eventually code it and debug it.
>
> The blog of Liquidware<http://antipastohw.blogspot.com/2009/02/zen-and-art-of-open-source-hardware.html>,
> an open source electronics shop that’s part of the Arduino ecology, examines
> the economics of open source hardware, in a manner that shows the rapid
> maturation of the field.
>
> First, the article shows the similarities and differences between the
> traditional and the open source economy, summarized in a great graphic<http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_pGsJFsc5Buc/SZoiwg32iiI/AAAAAAAAALs/STviWAFOMYs/s1600-h/OSHW1.jpg>,
> and then delves into what differentiates making software from making open
> hardware.
>
> [image: open hardware economics]
>
> Essentially, if open source software is based on time, open source hardware
> needs both time, and money, the latter being necessary for actually making
> the physical products:
>
> This “cluster”-based theory of Open Source Software and Hardware treats the
> Open Source Economy as a collection, or centralization of time and money. To
> have Open Source Software, you need clusters of time. To have Open Source
> Hardware, you need clusters of time and money.
>
> *Where can this money come from?*
>
> The author writes that:
>
> *“When money comes from individuals, it needs coordination mechanisms to
> make sure individuals are repaid, or get their money’s worth. When it comes
> from institutions, it often needs to support a cause or mission. And
> finally, when it comes from companies, it usually needs to make a profit.
> This last one is particularly nagging in the Open Source Hardware economy,
> because it suggests someone is making money off of Open Source. This tends
> to contradict the notion of the “free as in beer” ideas of Open Source. But
> is it necessary? Open Source Software can work without the presence of a
> profit-making corporate entity. Can the same be true for hardware?”*
>
> What matters is that, if a company needs to be involved, it has the right
> ethics compatible with a community of volunteers working for free, there are
> indeed, good and bad profits, or good and bad reasons to make profit, as
> summarized in a graphic<http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_pGsJFsc5Buc/SZoiwxFd4RI/AAAAAAAAAL8/t6Yp6NIrjXc/s400/OSHW3.jpg>
> .
>
> The author explains:
>
> *“By this framework, profit-making is a good thing when it’s maximized and
> re-invested back to the community. On the other hand, profit-making is a
> “bad” thing (or “less good”) when it funds traditional business model
> reasons, like mitigating risk, distribution, portfolio, or scaling. Why?
> Because each of these business models involve taking advantage of the
> efforts of others to make profit. The profit doesn’t make its way back to
> the individuals who contributed, so it’s “less good” than a system that
> directly rewards and incents individuals and their time. This assumes that
> the end-state desired outcome is a system in which individuals are directly
> contributing to a shared community, and collecting as many of the benefits
> of their time as possible.”*
>
> The next point is that, if such an ecology of ethical OSHW businesses is to
> form, it needs a certain amount of financial backing, just as ordinary
> start-ups would. Such an institutional assistance can come through a, still
> to be created, Open Source Hardware Bank<http://www.p2pfoundation.net/Open_Source_Hardware_Bank>
> !
>
> In a follow-up article<http://antipastohw.blogspot.com/2009/03/introducing-open-source-hardware.html>,
> this idea is examined in greater detail:
>
> As proposed by the Liquidware Antipasto blog:
>
> *“The Open Source Hardware Bank will work to eliminate the scaling and
> quantity pricing problem for OSHW projects by funding the build of 2x the
> quantity of any Open Source Hardware product. That means, if a project has
> found a way to find 10 potential buyers, the bank will put down the money
> needed to fund 10 more, for a total of 20 products. If a project has found
> 25 community members to buy in, the bank will fund another 25, to bring the
> total quantity down to 50. This should reduce the unit costs by around
> 10-30% of any hardware project, and in the case of the Illuminato, it’ll
> reduce costs by almost 40%! *
>
> In return, anyone who pitches in money to the bank will get a modest and
> sustainable return on their investment, somewhere between 5-10%. Normally,
> this wouldn’t be a huge amount, but given what I’ve learned about the “real”
> economy recently, 30-50% return on investment may never have really existed
> in the first place, let alone represented “sustainable growth.” This money
> gets paid back and cashed out when the rest of the inventory is bought as a
> check that Justin, Andrew, or I write and sign personally.
>
> So Andrew, Justin, and I will see to it that the Open Source Hardware Bank
> does not default, and each of us will guarantee every investment. Maybe you
> could call it AJMIC (instead of FDIC insured)! No one is trying to become a
> millionaire (without lots of hard work), a high paid investment banker
> (ugh), or Alan Greenspan (was he ever right about anything?). We’re just
> trying to build a sustainable little financial institution to help Open
> Source Hardware DIY’ers. Consequently, we’re also human and realize the
> limits of spare time, so no one’s rushing out to build 50 projects, just 1
> or 2 or 3 at a time will be perfectly fine, thank you!”
>
>
>
> On 3/13/09, Sepp Hasslberger <sepp at lastrega.com> wrote:
>>
>> I looked at their page and like it. There is a lot of potential there.
>>
>> Will follow that one up as well, at least with a comment on the questions
>> the guy asks in the article.
>>
>>
>> Sepp
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  On 13/mar/09, at 11:17, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>>
>> yes, thanks, and please do have a look at that open source bank, I'm
>> rather enthusiastic about their seriousness ... they have a logo, physical
>> certificates, and already a queu of jobs ...
>>
>> Michel
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 4:58 PM, Sepp Hasslberger <sepp at lastrega.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Michel,
>>>
>>> yes, I will keep it around and re-post after a while on the regular blog.
>>> Maybe we get some more data in comments...
>>>
>>>
>>> Sepp
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  On 13/mar/09, at 09:31, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Sepp,
>>>
>>> this would also be a good article to post to our regular blog!!
>>>
>>> i.e. http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/discussing-money-on-ning
>>>
>>> Perhaps in a week, after you had some reactions, after the 17th, you can
>>> repost it, eventually amended?
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>> --
>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>
>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>>
>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>>
>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>
>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>
>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>
> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>
> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>
> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
> http://www.shiftn.com/
>
>
>

-- 
Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
http://p2pfoundation.ning.com

Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens

The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
http://www.shiftn.com/
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