[p2p-research] Fwd: OpenStuff/Fairware (was: online shop project ( p2pf "label" ? ))
Michel Bauwens
michelsub2004 at gmail.com
Sun Jul 26 07:52:04 CEST 2009
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Franz Nahrada <f.nahrada at reflex.at>
Date: 2009/7/25
Subject: OpenStuff/Fairware (was: online shop project ( p2pf "label" ? ))
To: Smári McCarthy <smari at anarchism.is>
Cc: dante.monson at gmail.com, Vinay Gupta <hexayurt at gmail.com>, Marcin
Jakubowski <joseph.dolittle at gmail.com>, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com>,
Jeff Petry <jeff at lannaconsulting.com>, james burke <lifesized at gmail.com>,
Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>, Caroline Zeller <
caroline.zeller at gmail.com>, Manfred Kohler <EdKohler at gmx.net>, Michael Franz
Reinisch <e.mail at mfr.cc>, Ralf Schlatterbeck <office at runtux.com>, Thomas
Diener <td at fairwork.com>, Thomas Diener2 <info at fairwork.com>
Hi everybody
seems various strands are coming together !!
When Caroline was in Vienna, we met Ralf Schlatterbeck - one of the
dedicated Free Software / Open Source Developers in our circles. We made a
long walk together and one of the issues we talked aboutwas an Open Source
Hardware store. It seems the issue is in many minds nowadays!! Caroline
thought the theme was fascinating so I called for a little meeting the
next day to network them with Thomas Diener, a Swiss innovator and friend
who moved to Vienna recently, and Michael Franz Reinisch, a creative
thinker and designer who did lots of research on health issues.
The meeting was quite extensive the next day and we tried to link various
perspectives to find a sústainable pattern that might go far beyond the
opportunity of the moment. Of course its "up in the air" to create a
dealership for Open Source products, but what if such a dealership was
embedded in an operating system which facilitated communication between
all involved groups, users, developers, producers, workers, retailers and
so on?
So Thomas wrote down a quick sketch - and I think he should be included in
the debate as should Ralf. I think there are many different structures
that we have to work on currently, and the might be connected like
communicating vessels but yet also somehow independent:
* A foundation to guard the availability of all knowledge and design
against privatisation and enclosure.
* Platforms and online communities for user - designer - producer -
retailer communication
* A way to channel resources to developers who commit to Open Source design
The questions involved are manyfold, one of the aspects that so far have
hardly been touched is the fact that Open Stuff involves real physical
production. So automatically there are questions involved like quality
control (warranty etc), working conditions etc that you just cannot
"outsource" to somebody else.
It seems that "immaterial" goods like music are already well covered by
ventures like http://www.opensourcemusic.com/
and Jamendo, while the logistic of material goods is much mored digfficult
to tackle with.
Thats why Thomas suggested to merge P2P principles with the proven idea
and practise of Fair Trade and also with the idea of co-operative
co-ownership. I will add his first sketch of "Fairware System" at the end
of the quotations below.
Ralf has a lot of experiences with Quality Standards in the Open Source
hardware world like with the Arduino community.
The idea of a Public Tender or a controlled framework that Manfred Kohler
brought in (see below) is quite in line with the idea Thomas had, to
separate business and foundation and have the businesses act in its own
responsibility, but in some kind of legal and formalized relation in
regard to a foundation, which in itself is designed to be the voice and
facilitator of a constitutionalized community.
But I think this foundation should not be the P2P Foundation, because with
this commercial involvvement it would loose its primary role as a Civil
Society Organisation and metapolitical pressure group. There needs to be a
special foundation as Thomas describes it (see at bottom). The only type
of foundation that would be strong enough to carry this through would be a
democratically elected body that is based on a constitution, stable and
well-designed.
I agree the market is now ready for this since the message is spread about
new stuff with a new aura, and the early adopters are waiting. Maybe we
have not found a Steven Jobs type yet who is able to unite the feelings of
users, developers and producers and produce a compelling message and a
feeling of "the sky is the limit". But that is what we will need!
I do not fully understand Smaris distinction between a "peer produced
product" and a "simply open source based merchandise". In fact the
difference is at least blurring, as physical production in a p2p style has
not been seen yet (and also I think it would be very hard to make a
distinction). I like the idea of intentional localizing and having the
choice for a master and craftsperson near you.
I hope Thomas will be able to develop his concept in more details.
Franz
Smári McCarthy <smari at anarchism.is> writes:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>Dante, all,
>
> I've been meaning to set up a "open source hardware store" in a
>similar vein to Sparkfun.com to service the Icelandic market but haven't
>gotten around to it. Perhaps these two ideas can be related, although
>there is some difference.
>
> On the one hand we're talking about first hand sales of peer produced
>products (becoming a long tail aggregator) and on the other hand we're
>talking about localized reselling of a non-peer produced good that just
>happens to be open source (traditional merchantry)... but I think
>there's some value to be had from understanding the local aspect of it -
>what we want to do is send bits, not atoms, when possible and
>manufacture locally. Sometimes this is unfeasible, in which case using
>the physical transportation network makes sense.
>
> So for something like a design of a chair we might want to emerge
>globally and manufacture locally, whereas for something like an Arduino
>we would probably rather be inclined to simply import and forward the
>atoms.
>
> Does this make sense? Perhaps what makes the most sense, then, is a
>webstore (outside of eBay) that allows you to select a local supplier,
>but all suppliers have the same inventory database behind them and local
>stockpile registries.
>
> Somehow this feels like reinventing the merchant-coop in a long tail
>environment...
>
> - Smári
>
>
>
>Dante-Gabryell Monson wrote:
>> Hi Franz, Vinay, Smari, Alex, (cc: Michel, Caroline, Manfred , Jeff,
>> James )
>>
>> I would like to share with you below Manfred thoughtful suggestions, and
>> Michel's comments in relation to the potential of setting up a online
>> shop selling peer produced products...
>>
>> Cordially,
>>
>> Dante
>> http://hitchwiki.org/en/Dante
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: *Manfred Kohler* <EdKohler at gmx.net <mailto:EdKohler at gmx.net>>
>> Date: Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 9:35 AM
>> Subject: Re: - Fwd: Hi Michel - SETTING UP ONLINE SHOP ? open sourced
>> peer produced products
>> To: dante.monson at gmail.com <mailto:dante.monson at gmail.com>
>>
>>
>> Exactly, Dante. And you would decide on who is authorised to sell via
>> the shop so that there is a kind of quality control / label. The
>> shop-keeper would kick-back a part of his fees to the foundation and/or
>> to you without any need for a financial administration either.
>> See you,
>> Manfred
>>
>>
>> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>>> Datum: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 00:30:39 +0200
>>> Von: Dante-Gabryell Monson <dante.monson at gmail.com
>> <mailto:dante.monson at gmail.com>>
>>> An: Manfred Kohler <EdKohler at gmx.net <mailto:EdKohler at gmx.net>>
>>> Betreff: Re: - Fwd: Hi Michel - SETTING UP ONLINE SHOP ? open sourced
>> peer produced products
>>
>>> Thanks Manfred.
>>>
>>> Sounds interesting... although I needed to check more precise
>definitions
>>> in
>>> relation to, for example, tender, to understand the concept you are
>>> proposing.
>>>
>>> I think I have an idea of what you are proposing - using p2pf as some
>kind
>>> of brand with whom shopkeepers can make a contract to sell products
>>> produced
>>> by peer producers, while not resting responsibility on them ?
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 6:45 PM, Manfred Kohler <EdKohler at gmx.net
>> <mailto:EdKohler at gmx.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Hi Dante, Hi Michel,
>>> >
>>> > An international ebay shop is a complexe matter, I fear, far beyond
>the
>>> > items you seem to have identified so far. E.g.: VAT. Have you checked
>>> online
>>> > literature on logistics, authority requirements etc?
>>> > If you act "ad personam", you will be personally liable if the
>product
>>> > causes a damage. To avoid this, you need to create a capital
>company, a
>>> > co-operative or another legal entity.
>>> >
>>> > As an alternative: How about launching a kind of public tender to
>>> > online-shop-keepers with a top rating? The tender would aim at a
>certain
>>> > period in time, e.g. for one year. After one year, a new public
>tender
>>> might
>>> > be launched if the experience is not good or if the conditions are
>not
>>> > deemed well-enough by the community anymore. The shop-keeper would be
>>> > obliged to put and place a link to the foundation for the duration of
>>> the
>>> > contract and for a post-contractual period of one year. Thereby, the
>>> > reputation of the foundation would be kept and can be transferred
>from
>>> one
>>> > shop-keeper to the other if need for a shift is. The foundation, you
>as
>>> a
>>> > person, or, at a later stage, the maybe to be founded co-operation of
>>> P2P
>>> > producers would be better protected against legal actions of the
>>> customers.
>>> >
>>> > Your role, Dante, would consist in mobilising the producers instead
>of
>>> > doing a business that you probably do not very well know.
>>> >
>>> > Cheers,
>>> > Manfred
>>> >
>>> >
>>
>> Forwarded conversation
>> Subject: *Hi Michel - SETTING UP ONLINE SHOP ? open sourced peer
>> produced products*
>> ------------------------
>>
>> From: *Dante-Gabryell Monson* <dante.monson at gmail.com
>> <mailto:dante.monson at gmail.com>>
>> Date: Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 12:48 PM
>> To: Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>> <mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com>>
>>
>>
>> Open Sourced , Hacking / Reverse Engineering , ...
>>
>> I WANT TO OPEN UP A JOINT PROJECT FOR A EBAY SHOP SELLING
>> PEER PRODUCED, OPEN SOURCED DESIGN PRODUCTS !
>>
>> I did not find such shop on on ebay...
>>
>> I would ideally imagine such shop being transparent in its finances,
>> being peer managed, and having profits being split between the peers who
>> produced it,
>> and support for the movement ... ( to be defined ... )
>>
>> I m ready to invest a lot of time in such a project - using brussels as
>> a base to set up a platform that can start thinking about convering
>> resources to set up such shop...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>> <mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> A million and one thanks for these redesigns Nathan, they make the
>> resource base come out so much better ....
>>
>> I'm overjoyed by this,
>>
>> Thanks to all who can forward these redesigned sections to
>> interested people ... (can you facebook and twitter them eventually
>???)
>>
>> Michel
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 1:08 PM, Nathan Cravens <knuggy at gmail.com
>> <mailto:knuggy at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Michel,
>>
>> http://p2pfoundation.net/Product_Hacking
>>
>
http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Businesshttp://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Business
>>
>> Slowly, but surely.
>>
>> Nathan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>> http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>
>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>
>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> p2presearch mailing list
>> p2presearch at listcultures.org <mailto:p2presearch at listcultures.org>
>>
>http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------
>> From: *Michel Bauwens* <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>> <mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com>>
>> Date: Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 12:53 PM
>> To: dante.monson at gmail.com <mailto:dante.monson at gmail.com>, Jeff Petry
>> <jeff at lannaconsulting.com <mailto:jeff at lannaconsulting.com>>, james
>> burke <lifesized at gmail.com <mailto:lifesized at gmail.com>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Dante,
>>
>> are you interested in a cooperation with the p2p foundation, as such an
>> e-shop is an old dream of mine ...
>>
>> I think that for you, it could be a good solution for deriving income
>...
>>
>> perhaps a 3-some (or 4 some, with james for technical assistance?)
>>
>> you, jeff for respectively sourcing and marketing, and we as the
>> p2pfoundation offer our branding, audience and credibility ?
>>
>> the shop could sell arduino, buglabs, creative commons music and many
>> others ...
>>
>> I'm willing to help with the curation of products ...
>>
>> Michel
>>
>> ----------
>> From: *Dante-Gabryell Monson* <dante.monson at gmail.com
>> <mailto:dante.monson at gmail.com>>
>> Date: Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 1:22 PM
>> To: Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>> <mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com>>
>> Cc: Jeff Petry <jeff at lannaconsulting.com
>> <mailto:jeff at lannaconsulting.com>>, james burke <lifesized at gmail.com
>> <mailto:lifesized at gmail.com>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Michel, - Hi Jeff, Hi James,
>>
>> yes, I m ready for the perspective of cooperating to fulfill such shared
>> dream !
>>
>> i do not feel that the online technical part will be difficult if it is
>> done through an ebay account
>>
>> i need to check what the ( legal / moral person ) conditions are to open
>> up a shop.
>>
>> I feel the more challenging part will be to build up the logistics, and
>> be able to respond to request for products day in , day out.
>>
>> What would be the first products to focus on,
>> to progressicely build up the credibility and reputation of such online
>> store ?
>>
>> ----------
>> From: *Michel Bauwens* <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>> <mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com>>
>> Date: Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 11:04 AM
>> To: dante.monson at gmail.com <mailto:dante.monson at gmail.com>
>>
>>
>> Hi Dante,
>>
>> I see the following 'channels':
>>
>> - electronics
>>
>> - cc-music
>>
>> - cc-publishing
>>
>> - open/collaborative movies/documentaries
>>
>> - 3D printed objects
>>
>> ----------
>> From: *Dante-Gabryell Monson* <dante.monson at gmail.com
>> <mailto:dante.monson at gmail.com>>
>> Date: Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 11:26 AM
>> To: Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>> <mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks Michel
>>
>> thats the broad perspective
>>
>> i personally would prefer to start with "one product"... and if it
>> works, expand...
>>
>> ----------
>> From: *Michel Bauwens* <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>> <mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com>>
>> Date: Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 6:21 PM
>> To: dante.monson at gmail.com <mailto:dante.monson at gmail.com>
>>
>>
>> I have no preference, but given my lack of expertise, I would have to
>> stay away from the 'objects' myself, and focus more on the cultural
>side ...
>>
>> Michel
>>
>> ----------
>> From: *Dante-Gabryell Monson* <dante.monson at gmail.com
>> <mailto:dante.monson at gmail.com>>
>> Date: Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 9:04 PM
>> To: Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>> <mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks Michel
>>
>> I ll think about it.
>>
>> I have the feeling that it would be interesting to sell products that
>> are developed by mature communities.
>>
>> Probably open sourced hardware for smartphones will become popular,
>> but only when they ll really be competitive with Archos or Iphone ...
>> which I feel is not the case yet of, say, Open Moko...
>>
>> Nevertheless, perhaps such online shop would not need to be commercially
>> viable at first.
>>
>> Perhaps it can simply be a "showroom" for peer production ...
>>
>> In that case, your approach of developing a general overview, and
>> inviting others to suggest their peer produced products, would be a
>> interesting aggregator...
>>
>> ----------
>> From: *Michel Bauwens* <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>> <mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com>>
>> Date: Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 10:09 AM
>> To: dante.monson at gmail.com <mailto:dante.monson at gmail.com>
>>
>>
>> I'm thinking of an e-shop area, in which an editor would be responsible
>> for a particular area, and select say, the product of the week, this
>> way, we would gradually build up our offerings (52 times x sections per
>> year) ...
>>
>> Michel
>>
>> ----------
>> From: *Dante-Gabryell Monson* <dante.monson at gmail.com
>> <mailto:dante.monson at gmail.com>>
>> Date: Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 6:20 PM
>> To: Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>> <mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Michel
>>
>> "product of the week" is a very good concept !
>>
>> even if they do not get sold... it builds up a "show room", a collection
>> , ...
>>
>> But I wonder how this can be made compatible with "ebay"...
>>
>> I ll do some more research - but feel free to connect to anyone who may
>> already have experience selling on ebay.
>>
>> I wonder how ebay gets its money - perhaps through a commission on the
>sale.
>> I also wonder if we pay if nothing gets sold even when an add is
>> posted... and wonder if we pay for the amount of time a product is being
>> sold...
>>
>> Also see
>>
>> http://pages.befr.ebay.be/befr/hubs/selling/professional/index.html
>>
>> http://pages.befr.ebay.be/befr/hubs/selling/professional/advantages.html
>>
>>
>http://pages.befr.ebay.be/befr/hubs/selling/professional/experienced.html
>>
>> http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/index.html
>>
>> ----------
>> From: *Michel Bauwens* <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>> <mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com>>
>> Date: Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 4:27 PM
>> To: dante.monson at gmail.com <mailto:dante.monson at gmail.com>
>>
>>
>> hi dante,
>>
>> i never used ebay, but I'm sure you could ask some questions from the
>list,
>>
>> I think they indeed exclusively live from commissions
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>
*******************************************************************************************
"Open Source product development by a commercial structure that would
bring products to the market in an accountable way".
Thomas Diener presented his vision of "Fairware", and although Thomas is
not so fluent in English he wrote up for us what he thinks is important.
This might be also relevant for the villages economy. On Wednesday, we
held another meeting, a good - bye meeting for Inga Boehm who is
travelling to Missouri to live and work on FactorEFarm. We talked about
Open Source Ecology Europe and the way village products could support
village maintainance. I think the idea of merging fair trade with Open
Source is interesting in many respects.
So here is Thomas' concept:
==================
THE FAIRWARE CONCEPT: A "HYBRID" COMPANY
"I'll can send a more structured text within the next few weeks
but it will be in my very simple English. If somebody would like
to translate from German into English it would make my job
much easier.
I just start with a kind of sketch:
We would like to design a new way to develop and produce products. The
vision is:
Imagine all products we purchase and use contain the following quality
features:
-------------------------------------------------------
- functional
- worthwhile
- durable
- fully serviceable
- easy to keep up-to-date (acc. techn. products)
- fancy
- positive ecobalance
-------------------------------------------------------
Imagine that in such factories, where above described products are
manufactured there is also appreciation for workers - so we even would
like to work there.
>From there, we would love to use these products with clear conscience and
a kind of pride as we consider it as "our products". These products belong
to us, because its developed from our pure needs and designed and made by
us, potentially. More, trademark rights are owned by us in our roles as
worker/producer and consumer, concurrently.
These are products whose design and goodwill is considered common
knowledge.
In this sense there are already a lot of useful initiatives, e.g. Software
relying on a range of striking Open Source applications.
But what about cell phones, sneakers, furniture, cars, solar panels, as
well as many other products?
Lets call it the Open Source Physical Product side, not only electronic
hardware, but all kind of different stuff,
Indeed, even here there are some remarkable projects launched, but didn't
made headway, so far.
In comparison to above mentioned initiatives todays business mergers and
affiliated corporations are more powerful, financially strong, and rather
efficient, too.
Think about what will happen, if we combine efficiency of a large
commercial structure, the capability of Open Souce, IT options, and the
vitality of Social Communities?
to concretize this vision we need:
- a form of organization which combines the efficiency of a global company
with a deep democratic foundation.
- a clear structure which allows fast growth and the involvement of many
different players
- a web 2 community-based communication between all the players which
allows not only to brainstorm ideas, to crowdsource questions/solutions
and to control the different players but also to facilitate and to
visualize basic decisions making process.
The ideas to realize this dream are so far:
- the democratic foundation is possible through a special form of
participation: Every person which is involved in the "Company" is
automatically a co-holder of the company. Since as developer and designer
of products, as producer or as consumer (any person can of course be a mix
of all this roles). This model is proven by big and successful companies
like for instance "Visa-Card"
([ http://www.chaordic.org ]http://www.chaordic.org ) and maybe also some
cooperatives like Mondragon, Migros etc.
- to set up a organizational form we call "Hybrid global company" it is a
combination of basically 3 elements:
- - a foundation with legal capacity. The goal is:
- - - to assure that the "ethic" nucleus of the company will sustain
- - - to gather the precious parts of the company in order to keep them
away from the greediness of some player inside or outside of the company
(precious could be: the social community platform, the brand of the
Compagnie and of each product, the design of the corporate communication
and each product and so on.)
- - a limited company which is responsible for the operative part of the
work (coordination, translations, marketing, and so on).
- - - This joint stock company is only responsible to provide the services
around the "Hybrid global company".
- - a social community platform which is
- - - the "newspaper" of the company (independent from the foundation and
the limited company.
- - - the place where all the players are represented
- - - the place where the global direction of the company were discussed
and basic decision were made (something like a online parliament)
- - - The place where crowdsourcing can happen
- - - and so on . . .
This 3 Elements are basicly independend but connected trough a structural
coupling. In the best case that could grow into an living system, which
stabilize itself in a very dynamic way.
An exemple of this interplay you can find hier
[ http://fairwork.mixxt.org/networks/wiki/index.ProdukteGeschichte
]http://fairwork.mixxt.org/networks/wiki/index.ProdukteGeschichte (only in
german yet) - "The history of a product" describes in full detail what
would be a "democratic economic process"
Maybe someone could translate it to english and english pages could be
added in that Wiki.
What could be the next steps:
There are of course a lot of unsolved problems around this idea. But best
way to bring it into practice is to start.
So I suggest to build a foundation for that project and we need a first
striking product for the start of a cooperation between developer,
producers and consumers.
I am willing to maintain the process of building the foundation. The Swiss
law is very flexible and allows to start with a very small amount of
money. Anybody who would like to help me with the formulation of the
articles of corporation is kindly invited to help.
Warm greetings,
Thomas
Thomas Diener, FairWork GmbH
Switzerland: Austria:
Office
Binzstrasse 9, Zürich Gentzgasse 6, Wien
Mail
Steinhaldenstrasse 51 Tannengasse 1/15
CH 8002 Zürich A 2230 Gänserndorf
Phone
044 500 11 01 0720 51 80 31
Mobile
079 376 63 36 0699 170 92229
International Phone:
+41 44 500 11 01
Skype: fairwork
--
Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
http://www.shiftn.com/
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