[p2p-research] what to think of the market

[Michel Bauwens]

Hi Ryan,

I'm much happier with that formulation, I think diversity of human
institutions is the key, and freedom to choose between different logics, as
long as they respect the integrity of life and the biosphere,

Michel

On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 8:56 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Michel,
>
> I suppose on further thought that you are right.  I should have said
> that markets propel or accelerate innovation--not that innovation
> requires markets.  Even my lesser assertion might be debated as well.
>
> To my mind markets are a great good (much like a commons) that leads
> people to challenge themselves, deliver what is demanded and to dream
> of better ways.  Maybe those things can happen without profit or
> markets, but the innovation of the market was a profound social
> advance and one that occurred very broadly across a number of complex
> civilizations.
>
> Interesting that the market and the commons physically often occurred
> in the same or similar spaces.  Fernand Braudel I suppose was the
> clearest in tracing out the essential role of markets in paths that
> led out of feudalism--markets that often were taken as a common good
> to the cities they served.
>
> To me, choice is a worthwhile social good.  Choosing a spouse, a home,
> a city, a way to dress, the books and articles I wish to read...all
> that choice to me derives largely from the advances of the social
> ideas of the market.  It is perhaps humanity's greatest innovation
> even if it does not cause innovation.
>
> Ryan
>
> On 7/22/09, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Innovation doesn't require markets ... there was innovation long before
> > they
> > were markets ...
> >
> > the Roman army was very innovative ...
> >
> > the Soviet Union was very innovative ... remember the Spoutnik and Cuba
> has
> > been extraordinarily innovative surviving its Peak Oil ...
> >
> > this is not an argument for or against markets ... nor for centralized
> > planning ..
> >
> > just a sidenote on a automatic association that is not warranted,
> >
> > Michel
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 1:58 AM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >>  Kevin Carson>
> >>>
> >>> I've been a fan of Baker for a long time.  He grossly overestimates
> >>> the positive effect of patents and copyright in stimulating
> >>> innovation, IMO.  Most product and process innovations would have been
> >>> developed without patents, according to a study by F.M. Scherer, and
> >>> the "freemium" model (i.e. Redhat and Phish) is pretty broadly
> >>> applicable as a way of making money despite free content.  If
> >>> anything, patents suppress innovation.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >> In digital media, I agree.  Just saw Chris Anderson on Charlie Rose's
> >> show.  He was talking about his new book "Free."  He wasn't very
> >> interesting, but he made the point that business models are changing.  I
> >> think we can't make fundamental economic assumptions because economics,
> >> like
> >> all social science, is contextual to the times in which it is spun.
> >> Patents
> >> made more sense 50 years ago and so did copyrights, now the latter makes
> >> little sense as generally set in law and the former is making less and
> >> less
> >> sense.
> >>
> >> Innovation requires markets...not necessarily protections.  That said,
> >> small groups will forever more protect themselves from global
> competition
> >> and who can blame them.  If they can do it, why can a small group in a
> >> major
> >> market?  So, it isn't going to go away.  The best option is to create as
> >> many free or freemium products as is possible.  The ideology is
> >> increasingly
> >> a waste of time.
> >>
> >> Ryan
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
> > http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
> > http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >
> > Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
> > http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
> > http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
> >
> > Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
> >
> > The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
> > http://www.shiftn.com/
> >
>
>
> --
> Ryan Lanham
> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
> P.O. Box 633
> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
> Cayman Islands
> (345) 916-1712
>



-- 
Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
http://p2pfoundation.ning.com

Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens

The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
http://www.shiftn.com/
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