[p2p-research] debate on open agriculture

Sat Jul 18 09:56:12 CEST 2009

On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 11:58 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Michel:
>
> When oil is $400 a barrel, the world will be different and people will act
> differently.  But why would people act like oil is $400 a barrel when it is
> $60 a barrel and many experts say the right price is $32 a barrel?
>

Not sure why you're reading ... how can $32 be the right price for a
depleting resource ... the distorted market price, yes ... must be the same
people who predicted the meltdown would never happen ...

>
> Clearly it is not realistic for India and China to become the US, but
> should they volunteer to not become so?  I wouldn't if I were them, would
> you?  If I were them, I'd say let Nigeria starve while I get closer to what
> Mississippi or Romania has!  In short, why should anyone be selfless first?
> Sure, that leads to problems, but that's the challenge of coming up with
> solutions...you need incentives and mutual commitments.
>

Leading your country to an unsustainable path is not 'selfish', just stupid
...

>
> Notably, those who have surpluses are the most likely to be generous.  I
> don't see Sri Lanka falling all over itself to give its rather decent
> software technology to Indonesia.  The analogy often used is a bucket of
> crabs...crabs don't coordinate to get one or two of their kind out of a
> bucket...instead they act to pull their compatriots back down into the buck
> when they climb on the masses to get out.
>

This is a very outdated vision of both the animal and the human kingdom,
where selffishness/competition co-exist with very large amounts of behaviour
that is aligned and cooperative with others ... you are just choosing one
out of context example that fits with survival of the fittest ideology there
... Where do you get the idea that those who have surpluses are likely to be
more generous ... this is simply not true ... people here in thailand give a
lot more to each other, than I ever experienced in the middle class west ...
western countries can't even give 1% in solidarity to poorer countries ..

>
> Someday I will die, but I carry on consuming now because I am alive.  I
> work to prevent preventable health crises, but I haven't always and most
> people do not do so.  Many smoke, drink to excess, gain excessive weight,
> eat poorly, etc.  It is a matter of choice.
>

this is most of the time a very illusionary choice, influenced by
addictions, advertising and a whole system geared towards influencing you
towards that choice ... True choice requires a lot of awareness and
self-work

>
> We can either compel them against their will to what we think is right for
> them, or let them choose what they think is right for them.  If you compel,
> I am against you...to the death...and so are the great vast majorities of
> the military and human powers that exist on the planet.
>

this is simply not true, we live in a class society remember ... the vast
majorities of the military and human powers are geared against human
freedom, and the relative freedom that exists has been hard fought for by
social movements of all kinds  ... there is all kinds of coercion against
free choice, and some of it is acceptable, like the ban on smoking in public
spaces ....

Peer to peer is for the maximum free aggregation of individuals, against
many forms of existing coercion ... it is for more choice

> That said, I invite any to try their own experiments in selflessness and
> idealism.  My ideals include sharing...but also include profit and choice.
> Painful balances, but that is the price of being human.
>
> Ryan
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 1:52 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hi Ryan,
>>
>> Do you think Chinese shrimp farms will still be exporting to Florida
>> restaurants when oil is at $400 ...  It seems to me you are assuming a
>> linear development of wealth creation and ignoring the grave resource
>> challenges that countries like China will be facing very very soon ...
>>
>> I can tell you that already here Asian leaders are talking about the end
>> of this type of globalization and refocusing on Asian economic integration .
>> ..
>>
>> I don't think the choice is one between continuing business as usual and
>> pastoral regression, but one of developing renewable energies, smart organic
>> agriculture, and significantly relocalized production logics to take into
>> account resource and fossil fuel depletion.
>>
>> But clearly, assuming that China and India and other countries will reach
>> our level of consumption, and hoping that the extra 3 planets needed as its
>> required resource basis will be found, doesn't sound very realistic to me,
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>   On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 2:47 AM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>>   On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 12:53 PM, Kevin Carson <
>>> free.market.anticapitalist at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7/16/09, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >  There's no doubt that industrial-scale food production can crank
>>>> >  the largest amount of food Joules with the least amount of people.
>>>>
>>>> At the point of production, you're probably right.  But if total labor
>>>> includes amortization of the capital outlays for machinery, the
>>>> long-distance shipping cost, the food processors' and grocers'
>>>> markups, etc., from the consumer's perspective it will likely be
>>>> cheaper in labor terms to "make" rather than "buy."
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Centralization actually is quite efficient without qualification.  What
>>> follows below is a different set of political goals than efficiency which is
>>> typically taking as greatest output at lowest net cost.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> >  We're faced with an ageing demographics with people out of work.
>>>> >
>>>> >  A retired couple could occupy themselves quite well with a quarter
>>>> acre,
>>>> >  or around 0.10 ha (50 x 50 m). In principle they could derive 100% of
>>>> >  their calories from that space, using high-intensity organic
>>>> gardening
>>>> >  methods with no to very little mineral/synthetic fertilizer input.
>>>>
>>>> And in the Third World, where surplus labor with no earning power is
>>>> even more of a problem, that goes double.  The person who was evicted
>>>> (or whose parents were evicted) from their own subsistence plot, and
>>>> who is currently living in a tent city or squatter's shack or in a
>>>> gutter in Calcutta, can't afford to buy the output of cash-crop,
>>>> export-oriented agribusiness no matter how "efficient" it is, because
>>>> he's a surplus laborer who can't earn any money at all to buy food no
>>>> matter how cheap.  Putting him back on his own land, land that was
>>>> stolen from him or his parents so it could be used to grow cash crops
>>>> for those who can afford them, where he can produce directly for his
>>>> own consumption, is the ideal solution.
>>>>
>>> I agree with all of this again.  But it isn't going to happen if the
>>> primary social driver is efficiency.  You need to establish political
>>> systems that value full employment, low consumption of energy, etc. for some
>>> clear gain in comparative terms to how those gains could otherwise be
>>> achieved.
>>>
>>> It's far from clear you will end up with these outcomes if you simply set
>>> objectives (like a cap and trade system).  As the original writer wrote (and
>>> I agree) decentralized agrarian systems are not very sensible ways to live
>>> in a modern world.  Technologies for harvesting trees by the dozens an hour
>>> in Minnesota or Norway make far more sense than hiring two guys in Brazil or
>>> Indonesia to swing an axe.
>>>
>>> I certainly wouldn't want to be amongst those damned to live on a 1/4
>>> hectare when Europeans and Americans get to eat strawberries in November and
>>> fatty fish in the Caribbean when they crawl off a huge diesel-powered cruise
>>> ship.  I'd want my shot at wealth like those enjoying the best the planet
>>> has to offer.
>>>
>>> So, you either compel people to give up the opportunity for improvement
>>> or you create incentives (income redistributions) for the political outcomes
>>> you want (and can convince others to want.)
>>>
>>> Decreasing amounts of microcredit are used for agricultural production
>>> globally.  It's not a very safe business--risks are high and production is
>>> quite variable.  Scale it up just a bit, and you get lots of credit from
>>> governments, but still relatively little business credit.  Yet China has
>>> booming shrimp farms (almost all smaller scale) and similar enterprises.
>>> These sell shrimp that are eaten in restaurants in Florida (or Georgia)
>>> where one sees billboards complaining about it.  But such systems give
>>> people cheap shrimp and lots of logistics people good jobs flying airplanes,
>>> working in airports, etc.  You can't just wipe that out without realizing
>>> you are compelling places to a lower standard of living.  If the trade-offs
>>> are worth it to informed citizens, they will lower their outputs in favor of
>>> the environment, etc.  The issue is one of education and politics...not one
>>> of technology.
>>>
>>> Protein production is very challenging and fish/sea creatures are the
>>> answer.  Asia is well ahead on this front...especially China.  But pollution
>>> is high and resource use is dramatic.  But why shouldn't they do it if they
>>> can make a good living?  Europe and the US will need to volunteer to be poor
>>> before developing countries will volunteer to not be wealthier.
>>>
>>> Ryan
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>
>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>
>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>
>
>

-- 
Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
http://p2pfoundation.ning.com

Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens

The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
http://www.shiftn.com/
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