[p2p-research] Donation Networks

Sat Jan 24 23:36:23 CET 2009

On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 16:08, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:

> Chris, it makes sense.
>
> Actually, your suggestion is a plausible way of creating a pilot project.
> Except that in the case of 5 people, or a small amount in close proximity,
> they may not even need a currency. They could simply create a multi-way grid
> direct wired to one another, perhaps also regulated by some switches/relays
> to account for potential overloads in the physical circuits. If all are
> producing power rather consistently, they could just meet one anothers
> demand with system surplus as needed. Storage could also be used, such as a
> battery system to pool energy created.
>
> Maybe it is that Marc's proposed system is really targettd towards scaling
> up to several hundred or more participants.
>
> Also, don't forget, Chris, that you need not only proximity, but also a
> power grid that is configured for "2 way metering". Without this, there
> would be no way to participate.

Ah - I wasn't following closely enough, and thought it was a pilot of a
reputation-based donation network. If it's a pilot for an energy currency /
joule token system, I definitely can't participate for now, but will watch
with interest.

Chris

Not to mention that pretty much all existing grids are heavily regulated.
> So, any practical project of this nature would need to work through
> government and public utility systems.
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 4:56 PM, Chris Watkins <
> chriswaterguy at appropedia.org> wrote:
>
>> I'd be interested in trying it - but if you hope to try it out with only 5
>> people, I think they would need much more intensive interactions. E.g. they
>> would need to be neighbors, workmates, or friends who physically close.
>>
>> If I'm on a different continent from most of the participants, I'll only
>> experience substantial interaction as the network gets much bigger.
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 14:52, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> What you are working on is interesting, for sure.
>>>
>>> How would 5 people go about trying your system right now? Reason that I
>>> ask is that I think I could *find* 5 people interested in trying it, if it
>>> is within their means to participate.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 3:49 PM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> It's a given that it will work, but I thought you're asking about what
>>>> makes certain experiments sustainable while others run aground after a
>>>> while.
>>>>
>>>> It's also given that _some_ people will continue to sacrifice self for
>>>> the benefit of the whole and for reward in the future ... This is sort of
>>>> what everyone on this list is doing.
>>>>
>>>> As far as a "system for sharing surplus" my favored view is a system for
>>>> trading surplus (using the-more-you-share-the-more-you-have logic) because I
>>>> think that is a more efficient form of sharing.
>>>>
>>>> I think the model design, not the world view, is what's different
>>>> between what you're doing now and what I'm working on for the long term.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 12:40 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> What I am proposing is no currency at all.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is a way of measuring the health of a system that is recognized as a
>>>>> "Commons".
>>>>>
>>>>> More replies follow...
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 2:15 PM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <<
>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 8:37 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ps. an important question: what happened to p2paid? Why did the site
>>>>>>> activity seem to stop after a while? I beleive it is important to know why
>>>>>>> some projects like this succeed and some seem to lose momentum. It looks
>>>>>>> like a very noble effort.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hey Sam,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. I had actually casually suggested that tokenizing emotional energy
>>>>>> using "thank you" notes as currency is the ultimate un-money, but I have
>>>>>> found out after 3 months of thinking<http://p2pfoundation.net/P2P_Energy_Economy>that such currency would work best (or most realistically) with goods and
>>>>>> services that can be produced and delivered in abundance and on sustainable
>>>>>> basis. More exactly, those that can be produced and delivered on continuous,
>>>>>> scalable, distributed basis. For example, digital content, peer-manufactured
>>>>>> goods made entirely from renewable resources (and that are produced
>>>>>> independently by many peers, certain distributed digital services (think
>>>>>> Mechanical Turk) etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am actually doing this on a small scale with real people in the near
>>>>> future, and seeing what emerges.  I have people currently interested in
>>>>> doing it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. It is not sufficient to construct a nobel model based on high
>>>>>> ideals. People are driven by two continuous subconscious needs: survival
>>>>>> and/or discovery. Both of these needs need to be met, IMO, for a lasting
>>>>>> dynamic to emerge.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> People have been giving things to one another for hundreds of thousands
>>>>> of years.
>>>>>
>>>>> People have even created systems for giving to each other ("potlatch"
>>>>> is one example).
>>>>>
>>>>> Giving and sharing have been a basic part of human survival since the
>>>>> very first humans.
>>>>>
>>>>> The model that I operate with is explicitly not based on high ideals.
>>>>> In fact, it is based on mostly on actual agent-based models. Particularly,
>>>>> it is based on an Altruism model descended from the work of R. Axelrod,
>>>>> which shows success thresholds even when pressure from all factors is high,
>>>>> provided that cost of "altruism" is low.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can say that life itself provides the survival and discovery
>>>>>> plots, but that's why it's hard to bring people into a new place where
>>>>>> opportunities for survival and discovery are very limited.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The model that I am proposing will appeal to some specific world views.
>>>>> In particular, those described by CW Graves as "Sacrifice Self for Reward
>>>>> Later", and "Sacrifice Self So That All May Gain Now".
>>>>>
>>>>> Human nature is not limited to physiological survival (I assume you are
>>>>> referring to physiological survival), and "discovery". Bio-Psycho-Social
>>>>> systems also reveal patterns related to psychological survival, social
>>>>> sustainability, and prediction/foresight.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is an unlimited, evolving, exponentially expanding spectrum of
>>>>> fundamental assumptions of existence associated with human nature that go
>>>>> beyond base needs, such as survival (as there are significant amounts of
>>>>> people who are not totally focused on basic physiological survival).
>>>>>
>>>>> What if people discover that they could meet some of their survival
>>>>> needs by creating a systematic way to share surplus?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's actually where I am in the design of P2P Energy Economy<http://p2pfoundation.net/P2P_Energy_Economy>.
>>>>>> Specifically, I've found out that the existing money creates a great
>>>>>> opportunity for experiencing a survival game by enforcing scarcity, and if
>>>>>> we come up with an epi-economy or "epiconomy" (a higher level economy that
>>>>>> lays on top of the existing one) that is predicated on sustainable abundance
>>>>>> then I think it needs to contain a discovery game within that
>>>>>> counter-balances the survival game going on in the existing economy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3. There are other issues to designing a new kind of economy that
>>>>>> apply to what you're doing as well as what I'm working on, but I need to
>>>>>> think about them some more.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marc
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 10:29 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Paolo, thanks for your response.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is there an existing place to download http://www.p2paid.org source
>>>>>>>> code? If not, I can easily donate repository space for maintaining this, if
>>>>>>>> you want (plus issue que, and API).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is similar to what I am currently doing with
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com/repo/hgwebdir.cgi/smc/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> for http://socialmediaclassroom.com/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And we also have http://socialmediaclassroom.com/development which
>>>>>>>> is issue que and API
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Let me know if you are interested in that, and I am interested in
>>>>>>>> looking at a copy of your code, for sure. Thanks again!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 9:20 AM, <paola.dimaio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Samuel
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have recently become a member of freecycle
>>>>>>>>> and what I see is fantastic
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.freecycle.org/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> old things get used up by others, then passed on
>>>>>>>>> from spare parts to furniture, books, household items to the oddest
>>>>>>>>> thing around (offered /wanted)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> also, we have developed a drupal based tool
>>>>>>>>> www.p2paid.org which is free to use, open source if you want to
>>>>>>>>> install on your servers and change the config/GUI etc
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> hope useful pointers
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> best
>>>>>>>>> PDM
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Samuel Rose <
>>>>>>>>> samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> > Dear P2P Research,
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > After some months working privately with agent based Altruism and
>>>>>>>>> > Cooperation models, I am working towards initiating an experiment
>>>>>>>>> with with
>>>>>>>>> > a small number regional and continental participants in creating
>>>>>>>>> a balanced
>>>>>>>>> > donation and distribution system.
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > The system is fairly simple:
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > Participants list what they need, and fill mutual needs. Each
>>>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>>>> > maintains a "reputation" that is based on a "thank you" that is
>>>>>>>>> received
>>>>>>>>> > from the person they have donated to.  A tracking system monitors
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> > "carrying capacity" of donations. "thank you" assignments to
>>>>>>>>> participants
>>>>>>>>> > are monitored, and so too are receipts of donations. Optionally,
>>>>>>>>> each
>>>>>>>>> > participant may also register their own satisfaction with the
>>>>>>>>> system as a
>>>>>>>>> > whole.
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > Total satisfaction, plus a "thank you" (which is seen in the
>>>>>>>>> system as
>>>>>>>>> > individual satisfaction with what is donated) compared against
>>>>>>>>> satisfactory
>>>>>>>>> > receipt of donations (where you "thank" the other person, and
>>>>>>>>> thus add to
>>>>>>>>> > their rating), and a certain base level of overall needs met,
>>>>>>>>>  would then
>>>>>>>>> > give feedback to each user, showing that they may need to donate
>>>>>>>>> more, or
>>>>>>>>> > improve the quality of what they are giving to others, in order
>>>>>>>>> to maintain
>>>>>>>>> > total "health" of the system.
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > In the United States, this is my proposal as a route for people
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> > distribute regulated goods like food items, fuel
>>>>>>>>> production/ingredients, etc
>>>>>>>>> > in way that is legal, and that avoids "market" exchanges (it is
>>>>>>>>> legal to
>>>>>>>>> > donate or give items to one another in the fashion proposed
>>>>>>>>> above).
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > As local food systems, and open product design/fabrication
>>>>>>>>> activity is
>>>>>>>>> > already increasing, myself and others are seeing the above as a
>>>>>>>>> plausible
>>>>>>>>> > way to pool and share resources. Your thoughts are appreciated.
>>>>>>>>> > --
>>>>>>>>> > Sam Rose
>>>>>>>>> > Social Synergy
>>>>>>>>> > Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>>>>>>>> > Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>>>>>>> > AIM: Str9960
>>>>>>>>> > Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
>>>>>>>>> > skype: samuelrose
>>>>>>>>> > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> > http://socialsynergyweb.org/network/services
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > "When a distinguished elderly scientist states that something is
>>>>>>>>> possible,
>>>>>>>>> > he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is
>>>>>>>>> impossible,
>>>>>>>>> > he is very probably wrong."
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >    Arthur C. Clarke, Clarke's first law
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> > p2presearch mailing list
>>>>>>>>> > p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Paola Di Maio
>>>>>>>>> **********************************
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Forthcoming
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> i-Semantics 2009, 2 - 4 September 2009, Graz, Austria.
>>>>>>>>> www.i-semantics.tugraz.at
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> SEMAPRO 2009, Malta
>>>>>>>>> http://www.iaria.org/conferences2009/RegistrationSEMAPRO09.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Sam Rose
>>>>>>>> Social Synergy
>>>>>>>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>>>>>>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>>>>>> AIM: Str9960
>>>>>>>> Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
>>>>>>>> skype: samuelrose
>>>>>>>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/network/services
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "When a distinguished elderly scientist states that something is
>>>>>>>> possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is
>>>>>>>> impossible, he is very probably wrong."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    Arthur C. Clarke, Clarke's first law
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Sam Rose
>>>>>>> Social Synergy
>>>>>>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>>>>>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>>>>> AIM: Str9960
>>>>>>> Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
>>>>>>> skype: samuelrose
>>>>>>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>>>>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/network/services
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "When a distinguished elderly scientist states that something is
>>>>>>> possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is
>>>>>>> impossible, he is very probably wrong."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    Arthur C. Clarke, Clarke's first law
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Sam Rose
>>>>> Social Synergy
>>>>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>>>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>>> AIM: Str9960
>>>>> Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
>>>>> skype: samuelrose
>>>>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/network/services
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "When a distinguished elderly scientist states that something is
>>>>> possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is
>>>>> impossible, he is very probably wrong."
>>>>>
>>>>>    Arthur C. Clarke, Clarke's first law
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sam Rose
>>> Social Synergy
>>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>> AIM: Str9960
>>> Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
>>> skype: samuelrose
>>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/network/services
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "When a distinguished elderly scientist states that something is
>>> possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is
>>> impossible, he is very probably wrong."
>>>
>>>    Arthur C. Clarke, Clarke's first law
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Chris Watkins (a.k.a. Chriswaterguy)
>>
>> Appropedia.org - Sharing knowledge to build rich, sustainable lives.
>>
>> identi.ca/appropedia / twitter.com/appropedia
>> blogs.appropedia.org
>>
>> I like this: five.sentenc.es
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Sam Rose
> Social Synergy
> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> AIM: Str9960
> Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
> skype: samuelrose
> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> http://socialsynergyweb.org/network/services
>
>
>
> "When a distinguished elderly scientist states that something is possible,
> he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible,
> he is very probably wrong."
>
>    Arthur C. Clarke, Clarke's first law
>

-- 
Chris Watkins (a.k.a. Chriswaterguy)

Appropedia.org - Sharing knowledge to build rich, sustainable lives.

identi.ca/appropedia / twitter.com/appropedia
blogs.appropedia.org

I like this: five.sentenc.es
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