[p2p-research] Donation Networks

Sat Jan 24 23:08:42 CET 2009

Chris, it makes sense.

Actually, your suggestion is a plausible way of creating a pilot project.
Except that in the case of 5 people, or a small amount in close proximity,
they may not even need a currency. They could simply create a multi-way grid
direct wired to one another, perhaps also regulated by some switches/relays
to account for potential overloads in the physical circuits. If all are
producing power rather consistently, they could just meet one anothers
demand with system surplus as needed. Storage could also be used, such as a
battery system to pool energy created.

Maybe it is that Marc's proposed system is really targettd towards scaling
up to several hundred or more participants.

Also, don't forget, Chris, that you need not only proximity, but also a
power grid that is configured for "2 way metering". Without this, there
would be no way to participate. Not to mention that pretty much all existing
grids are heavily regulated. So, any practical project of this nature would
need to work through government and public utility systems.

On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 4:56 PM, Chris Watkins <chriswaterguy at appropedia.org
> wrote:

> I'd be interested in trying it - but if you hope to try it out with only 5
> people, I think they would need much more intensive interactions. E.g. they
> would need to be neighbors, workmates, or friends who physically close.
>
> If I'm on a different continent from most of the participants, I'll only
> experience substantial interaction as the network gets much bigger.
>
> On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 14:52, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> What you are working on is interesting, for sure.
>>
>> How would 5 people go about trying your system right now? Reason that I
>> ask is that I think I could *find* 5 people interested in trying it, if it
>> is within their means to participate.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 3:49 PM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It's a given that it will work, but I thought you're asking about what
>>> makes certain experiments sustainable while others run aground after a
>>> while.
>>>
>>> It's also given that _some_ people will continue to sacrifice self for
>>> the benefit of the whole and for reward in the future ... This is sort of
>>> what everyone on this list is doing.
>>>
>>> As far as a "system for sharing surplus" my favored view is a system for
>>> trading surplus (using the-more-you-share-the-more-you-have logic) because I
>>> think that is a more efficient form of sharing.
>>>
>>> I think the model design, not the world view, is what's different between
>>> what you're doing now and what I'm working on for the long term.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 12:40 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> What I am proposing is no currency at all.
>>>>
>>>> It is a way of measuring the health of a system that is recognized as a
>>>> "Commons".
>>>>
>>>> More replies follow...
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 2:15 PM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <<
>>>>> On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 8:37 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ps. an important question: what happened to p2paid? Why did the site
>>>>>> activity seem to stop after a while? I beleive it is important to know why
>>>>>> some projects like this succeed and some seem to lose momentum. It looks
>>>>>> like a very noble effort.
>>>>>>
>>>>> >>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey Sam,
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. I had actually casually suggested that tokenizing emotional energy
>>>>> using "thank you" notes as currency is the ultimate un-money, but I have
>>>>> found out after 3 months of thinking<http://p2pfoundation.net/P2P_Energy_Economy>that such currency would work best (or most realistically) with goods and
>>>>> services that can be produced and delivered in abundance and on sustainable
>>>>> basis. More exactly, those that can be produced and delivered on continuous,
>>>>> scalable, distributed basis. For example, digital content, peer-manufactured
>>>>> goods made entirely from renewable resources (and that are produced
>>>>> independently by many peers, certain distributed digital services (think
>>>>> Mechanical Turk) etc.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am actually doing this on a small scale with real people in the near
>>>> future, and seeing what emerges.  I have people currently interested in
>>>> doing it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. It is not sufficient to construct a nobel model based on high
>>>>> ideals. People are driven by two continuous subconscious needs: survival
>>>>> and/or discovery. Both of these needs need to be met, IMO, for a lasting
>>>>> dynamic to emerge.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> People have been giving things to one another for hundreds of thousands
>>>> of years.
>>>>
>>>> People have even created systems for giving to each other ("potlatch" is
>>>> one example).
>>>>
>>>> Giving and sharing have been a basic part of human survival since the
>>>> very first humans.
>>>>
>>>> The model that I operate with is explicitly not based on high ideals. In
>>>> fact, it is based on mostly on actual agent-based models. Particularly, it
>>>> is based on an Altruism model descended from the work of R. Axelrod, which
>>>> shows success thresholds even when pressure from all factors is high,
>>>> provided that cost of "altruism" is low.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You can say that life itself provides the survival and discovery plots,
>>>>> but that's why it's hard to bring people into a new place where
>>>>> opportunities for survival and discovery are very limited.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The model that I am proposing will appeal to some specific world views.
>>>> In particular, those described by CW Graves as "Sacrifice Self for Reward
>>>> Later", and "Sacrifice Self So That All May Gain Now".
>>>>
>>>> Human nature is not limited to physiological survival (I assume you are
>>>> referring to physiological survival), and "discovery". Bio-Psycho-Social
>>>> systems also reveal patterns related to psychological survival, social
>>>> sustainability, and prediction/foresight.
>>>>
>>>> There is an unlimited, evolving, exponentially expanding spectrum of
>>>> fundamental assumptions of existence associated with human nature that go
>>>> beyond base needs, such as survival (as there are significant amounts of
>>>> people who are not totally focused on basic physiological survival).
>>>>
>>>> What if people discover that they could meet some of their survival
>>>> needs by creating a systematic way to share surplus?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That's actually where I am in the design of P2P Energy Economy<http://p2pfoundation.net/P2P_Energy_Economy>.
>>>>> Specifically, I've found out that the existing money creates a great
>>>>> opportunity for experiencing a survival game by enforcing scarcity, and if
>>>>> we come up with an epi-economy or "epiconomy" (a higher level economy that
>>>>> lays on top of the existing one) that is predicated on sustainable abundance
>>>>> then I think it needs to contain a discovery game within that
>>>>> counter-balances the survival game going on in the existing economy.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. There are other issues to designing a new kind of economy that apply
>>>>> to what you're doing as well as what I'm working on, but I need to think
>>>>> about them some more.
>>>>>
>>>>> Marc
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 10:29 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Paolo, thanks for your response.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there an existing place to download http://www.p2paid.org source
>>>>>>> code? If not, I can easily donate repository space for maintaining this, if
>>>>>>> you want (plus issue que, and API).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is similar to what I am currently doing with
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com/repo/hgwebdir.cgi/smc/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> for http://socialmediaclassroom.com/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And we also have http://socialmediaclassroom.com/development which
>>>>>>> is issue que and API
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let me know if you are interested in that, and I am interested in
>>>>>>> looking at a copy of your code, for sure. Thanks again!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 9:20 AM, <paola.dimaio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Samuel
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have recently become a member of freecycle
>>>>>>>> and what I see is fantastic
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.freecycle.org/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> old things get used up by others, then passed on
>>>>>>>> from spare parts to furniture, books, household items to the oddest
>>>>>>>> thing around (offered /wanted)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> also, we have developed a drupal based tool
>>>>>>>> www.p2paid.org which is free to use, open source if you want to
>>>>>>>> install on your servers and change the config/GUI etc
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> hope useful pointers
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> best
>>>>>>>> PDM
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Samuel Rose <
>>>>>>>> samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> > Dear P2P Research,
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > After some months working privately with agent based Altruism and
>>>>>>>> > Cooperation models, I am working towards initiating an experiment
>>>>>>>> with with
>>>>>>>> > a small number regional and continental participants in creating a
>>>>>>>> balanced
>>>>>>>> > donation and distribution system.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > The system is fairly simple:
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Participants list what they need, and fill mutual needs. Each
>>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>>> > maintains a "reputation" that is based on a "thank you" that is
>>>>>>>> received
>>>>>>>> > from the person they have donated to.  A tracking system monitors
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> > "carrying capacity" of donations. "thank you" assignments to
>>>>>>>> participants
>>>>>>>> > are monitored, and so too are receipts of donations. Optionally,
>>>>>>>> each
>>>>>>>> > participant may also register their own satisfaction with the
>>>>>>>> system as a
>>>>>>>> > whole.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Total satisfaction, plus a "thank you" (which is seen in the
>>>>>>>> system as
>>>>>>>> > individual satisfaction with what is donated) compared against
>>>>>>>> satisfactory
>>>>>>>> > receipt of donations (where you "thank" the other person, and thus
>>>>>>>> add to
>>>>>>>> > their rating), and a certain base level of overall needs met,
>>>>>>>>  would then
>>>>>>>> > give feedback to each user, showing that they may need to donate
>>>>>>>> more, or
>>>>>>>> > improve the quality of what they are giving to others, in order to
>>>>>>>> maintain
>>>>>>>> > total "health" of the system.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > In the United States, this is my proposal as a route for people to
>>>>>>>> > distribute regulated goods like food items, fuel
>>>>>>>> production/ingredients, etc
>>>>>>>> > in way that is legal, and that avoids "market" exchanges (it is
>>>>>>>> legal to
>>>>>>>> > donate or give items to one another in the fashion proposed
>>>>>>>> above).
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > As local food systems, and open product design/fabrication
>>>>>>>> activity is
>>>>>>>> > already increasing, myself and others are seeing the above as a
>>>>>>>> plausible
>>>>>>>> > way to pool and share resources. Your thoughts are appreciated.
>>>>>>>> > --
>>>>>>>> > Sam Rose
>>>>>>>> > Social Synergy
>>>>>>>> > Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>>>>>>> > Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>>>>>> > AIM: Str9960
>>>>>>>> > Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
>>>>>>>> > skype: samuelrose
>>>>>>>> > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> > http://socialsynergyweb.org/network/services
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > "When a distinguished elderly scientist states that something is
>>>>>>>> possible,
>>>>>>>> > he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is
>>>>>>>> impossible,
>>>>>>>> > he is very probably wrong."
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >    Arthur C. Clarke, Clarke's first law
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> > p2presearch mailing list
>>>>>>>> > p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Paola Di Maio
>>>>>>>> **********************************
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Forthcoming
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> i-Semantics 2009, 2 - 4 September 2009, Graz, Austria.
>>>>>>>> www.i-semantics.tugraz.at
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> SEMAPRO 2009, Malta
>>>>>>>> http://www.iaria.org/conferences2009/RegistrationSEMAPRO09.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Sam Rose
>>>>>>> Social Synergy
>>>>>>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>>>>>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>>>>> AIM: Str9960
>>>>>>> Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
>>>>>>> skype: samuelrose
>>>>>>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>>>>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/network/services
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "When a distinguished elderly scientist states that something is
>>>>>>> possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is
>>>>>>> impossible, he is very probably wrong."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    Arthur C. Clarke, Clarke's first law
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Sam Rose
>>>>>> Social Synergy
>>>>>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>>>>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>>>> AIM: Str9960
>>>>>> Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
>>>>>> skype: samuelrose
>>>>>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>>>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/network/services
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "When a distinguished elderly scientist states that something is
>>>>>> possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is
>>>>>> impossible, he is very probably wrong."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Arthur C. Clarke, Clarke's first law
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sam Rose
>>>> Social Synergy
>>>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>> AIM: Str9960
>>>> Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
>>>> skype: samuelrose
>>>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/network/services
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "When a distinguished elderly scientist states that something is
>>>> possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is
>>>> impossible, he is very probably wrong."
>>>>
>>>>    Arthur C. Clarke, Clarke's first law
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sam Rose
>> Social Synergy
>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>> AIM: Str9960
>> Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
>> skype: samuelrose
>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/network/services
>>
>>
>>
>> "When a distinguished elderly scientist states that something is possible,
>> he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible,
>> he is very probably wrong."
>>
>>    Arthur C. Clarke, Clarke's first law
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> p2presearch mailing list
>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Chris Watkins (a.k.a. Chriswaterguy)
>
> Appropedia.org - Sharing knowledge to build rich, sustainable lives.
>
> identi.ca/appropedia / twitter.com/appropedia
> blogs.appropedia.org
>
> I like this: five.sentenc.es
>

-- 
Sam Rose
Social Synergy
Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
AIM: Str9960
Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
skype: samuelrose
email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
http://socialsynergyweb.org/network/services

"When a distinguished elderly scientist states that something is possible,
he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible,
he is very probably wrong."

   Arthur C. Clarke, Clarke's first law
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