[p2p-research] Donation Networks

Sat Jan 24 22:56:31 CET 2009

I'd be interested in trying it - but if you hope to try it out with only 5
people, I think they would need much more intensive interactions. E.g. they
would need to be neighbors, workmates, or friends who physically close.

If I'm on a different continent from most of the participants, I'll only
experience substantial interaction as the network gets much bigger.

On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 14:52, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:

> What you are working on is interesting, for sure.
>
> How would 5 people go about trying your system right now? Reason that I ask
> is that I think I could *find* 5 people interested in trying it, if it is
> within their means to participate.
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 3:49 PM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It's a given that it will work, but I thought you're asking about what
>> makes certain experiments sustainable while others run aground after a
>> while.
>>
>> It's also given that _some_ people will continue to sacrifice self for the
>> benefit of the whole and for reward in the future ... This is sort of what
>> everyone on this list is doing.
>>
>> As far as a "system for sharing surplus" my favored view is a system for
>> trading surplus (using the-more-you-share-the-more-you-have logic) because I
>> think that is a more efficient form of sharing.
>>
>> I think the model design, not the world view, is what's different between
>> what you're doing now and what I'm working on for the long term.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 12:40 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> What I am proposing is no currency at all.
>>>
>>> It is a way of measuring the health of a system that is recognized as a
>>> "Commons".
>>>
>>> More replies follow...
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 2:15 PM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> <<
>>>> On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 8:37 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ps. an important question: what happened to p2paid? Why did the site
>>>>> activity seem to stop after a while? I beleive it is important to know why
>>>>> some projects like this succeed and some seem to lose momentum. It looks
>>>>> like a very noble effort.
>>>>>
>>>> >>
>>>>
>>>> Hey Sam,
>>>>
>>>> 1. I had actually casually suggested that tokenizing emotional energy
>>>> using "thank you" notes as currency is the ultimate un-money, but I have
>>>> found out after 3 months of thinking<http://p2pfoundation.net/P2P_Energy_Economy>that such currency would work best (or most realistically) with goods and
>>>> services that can be produced and delivered in abundance and on sustainable
>>>> basis. More exactly, those that can be produced and delivered on continuous,
>>>> scalable, distributed basis. For example, digital content, peer-manufactured
>>>> goods made entirely from renewable resources (and that are produced
>>>> independently by many peers, certain distributed digital services (think
>>>> Mechanical Turk) etc.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am actually doing this on a small scale with real people in the near
>>> future, and seeing what emerges.  I have people currently interested in
>>> doing it.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2. It is not sufficient to construct a nobel model based on high ideals.
>>>> People are driven by two continuous subconscious needs: survival and/or
>>>> discovery. Both of these needs need to be met, IMO, for a lasting dynamic to
>>>> emerge.
>>>>
>>>
>>> People have been giving things to one another for hundreds of thousands
>>> of years.
>>>
>>> People have even created systems for giving to each other ("potlatch" is
>>> one example).
>>>
>>> Giving and sharing have been a basic part of human survival since the
>>> very first humans.
>>>
>>> The model that I operate with is explicitly not based on high ideals. In
>>> fact, it is based on mostly on actual agent-based models. Particularly, it
>>> is based on an Altruism model descended from the work of R. Axelrod, which
>>> shows success thresholds even when pressure from all factors is high,
>>> provided that cost of "altruism" is low.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> You can say that life itself provides the survival and discovery plots,
>>>> but that's why it's hard to bring people into a new place where
>>>> opportunities for survival and discovery are very limited.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The model that I am proposing will appeal to some specific world views.
>>> In particular, those described by CW Graves as "Sacrifice Self for Reward
>>> Later", and "Sacrifice Self So That All May Gain Now".
>>>
>>> Human nature is not limited to physiological survival (I assume you are
>>> referring to physiological survival), and "discovery". Bio-Psycho-Social
>>> systems also reveal patterns related to psychological survival, social
>>> sustainability, and prediction/foresight.
>>>
>>> There is an unlimited, evolving, exponentially expanding spectrum of
>>> fundamental assumptions of existence associated with human nature that go
>>> beyond base needs, such as survival (as there are significant amounts of
>>> people who are not totally focused on basic physiological survival).
>>>
>>> What if people discover that they could meet some of their survival needs
>>> by creating a systematic way to share surplus?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's actually where I am in the design of P2P Energy Economy<http://p2pfoundation.net/P2P_Energy_Economy>.
>>>> Specifically, I've found out that the existing money creates a great
>>>> opportunity for experiencing a survival game by enforcing scarcity, and if
>>>> we come up with an epi-economy or "epiconomy" (a higher level economy that
>>>> lays on top of the existing one) that is predicated on sustainable abundance
>>>> then I think it needs to contain a discovery game within that
>>>> counter-balances the survival game going on in the existing economy.
>>>>
>>>> 3. There are other issues to designing a new kind of economy that apply
>>>> to what you're doing as well as what I'm working on, but I need to think
>>>> about them some more.
>>>>
>>>> Marc
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 10:29 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Paolo, thanks for your response.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there an existing place to download http://www.p2paid.org source
>>>>>> code? If not, I can easily donate repository space for maintaining this, if
>>>>>> you want (plus issue que, and API).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is similar to what I am currently doing with
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com/repo/hgwebdir.cgi/smc/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> for http://socialmediaclassroom.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And we also have http://socialmediaclassroom.com/development which is
>>>>>> issue que and API
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let me know if you are interested in that, and I am interested in
>>>>>> looking at a copy of your code, for sure. Thanks again!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 9:20 AM, <paola.dimaio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Samuel
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have recently become a member of freecycle
>>>>>>> and what I see is fantastic
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.freecycle.org/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> old things get used up by others, then passed on
>>>>>>> from spare parts to furniture, books, household items to the oddest
>>>>>>> thing around (offered /wanted)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> also, we have developed a drupal based tool
>>>>>>> www.p2paid.org which is free to use, open source if you want to
>>>>>>> install on your servers and change the config/GUI etc
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> hope useful pointers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> best
>>>>>>> PDM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> > Dear P2P Research,
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > After some months working privately with agent based Altruism and
>>>>>>> > Cooperation models, I am working towards initiating an experiment
>>>>>>> with with
>>>>>>> > a small number regional and continental participants in creating a
>>>>>>> balanced
>>>>>>> > donation and distribution system.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > The system is fairly simple:
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Participants list what they need, and fill mutual needs. Each
>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>> > maintains a "reputation" that is based on a "thank you" that is
>>>>>>> received
>>>>>>> > from the person they have donated to.  A tracking system monitors
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> > "carrying capacity" of donations. "thank you" assignments to
>>>>>>> participants
>>>>>>> > are monitored, and so too are receipts of donations. Optionally,
>>>>>>> each
>>>>>>> > participant may also register their own satisfaction with the
>>>>>>> system as a
>>>>>>> > whole.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Total satisfaction, plus a "thank you" (which is seen in the system
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> > individual satisfaction with what is donated) compared against
>>>>>>> satisfactory
>>>>>>> > receipt of donations (where you "thank" the other person, and thus
>>>>>>> add to
>>>>>>> > their rating), and a certain base level of overall needs met,
>>>>>>>  would then
>>>>>>> > give feedback to each user, showing that they may need to donate
>>>>>>> more, or
>>>>>>> > improve the quality of what they are giving to others, in order to
>>>>>>> maintain
>>>>>>> > total "health" of the system.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > In the United States, this is my proposal as a route for people to
>>>>>>> > distribute regulated goods like food items, fuel
>>>>>>> production/ingredients, etc
>>>>>>> > in way that is legal, and that avoids "market" exchanges (it is
>>>>>>> legal to
>>>>>>> > donate or give items to one another in the fashion proposed above).
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > As local food systems, and open product design/fabrication activity
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> > already increasing, myself and others are seeing the above as a
>>>>>>> plausible
>>>>>>> > way to pool and share resources. Your thoughts are appreciated.
>>>>>>> > --
>>>>>>> > Sam Rose
>>>>>>> > Social Synergy
>>>>>>> > Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>>>>>> > Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>>>>> > AIM: Str9960
>>>>>>> > Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
>>>>>>> > skype: samuelrose
>>>>>>> > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>>>>> > http://socialsynergyweb.org/network/services
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > "When a distinguished elderly scientist states that something is
>>>>>>> possible,
>>>>>>> > he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is
>>>>>>> impossible,
>>>>>>> > he is very probably wrong."
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >    Arthur C. Clarke, Clarke's first law
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> > p2presearch mailing list
>>>>>>> > p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Paola Di Maio
>>>>>>> **********************************
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Forthcoming
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> i-Semantics 2009, 2 - 4 September 2009, Graz, Austria.
>>>>>>> www.i-semantics.tugraz.at
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> SEMAPRO 2009, Malta
>>>>>>> http://www.iaria.org/conferences2009/RegistrationSEMAPRO09.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Sam Rose
>>>>>> Social Synergy
>>>>>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>>>>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>>>> AIM: Str9960
>>>>>> Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
>>>>>> skype: samuelrose
>>>>>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>>>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/network/services
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "When a distinguished elderly scientist states that something is
>>>>>> possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is
>>>>>> impossible, he is very probably wrong."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Arthur C. Clarke, Clarke's first law
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Sam Rose
>>>>> Social Synergy
>>>>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>>>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>>> AIM: Str9960
>>>>> Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
>>>>> skype: samuelrose
>>>>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/network/services
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "When a distinguished elderly scientist states that something is
>>>>> possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is
>>>>> impossible, he is very probably wrong."
>>>>>
>>>>>    Arthur C. Clarke, Clarke's first law
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sam Rose
>>> Social Synergy
>>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>> AIM: Str9960
>>> Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
>>> skype: samuelrose
>>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/network/services
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "When a distinguished elderly scientist states that something is
>>> possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is
>>> impossible, he is very probably wrong."
>>>
>>>    Arthur C. Clarke, Clarke's first law
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Sam Rose
> Social Synergy
> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> AIM: Str9960
> Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
> skype: samuelrose
> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> http://socialsynergyweb.org/network/services
>
>
>
> "When a distinguished elderly scientist states that something is possible,
> he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible,
> he is very probably wrong."
>
>    Arthur C. Clarke, Clarke's first law
>
> _______________________________________________
> p2presearch mailing list
> p2presearch at listcultures.org
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>
>

-- 
Chris Watkins (a.k.a. Chriswaterguy)

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