[p2p-research] People's Clouds vs Big Business Clouds

Sun Jan 18 20:48:47 CET 2009

Summary

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: Yi-Tan Tech Community Call 214 - The Meaning of Clouds - 1:30pm
EST, Monday January 19, 2009
To: Yi-Tan at googlegroups.com

To be more clear re: the ending note "dependence"

P2P = increased autonomy through increased inter-dependence

Current paradigm = decreased autonomy through increased dependence on a few
increasingly powerful suppliers

On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 11:25 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com> wrote:

> OK, I'll try my best as far as making the conference call
>
> I just want to note that there is nothing wrong with "centralization" in
> and by itself as an architectural pattern. For example, unlike the starfish,
> our brain is placed centrally in our skull, not distributed throughout our
> body (the nervous system is another story.) So from an architectural point
> of view both centralization and decentralization have their uses.
>
> But what I'm frustrated about is the "centralization of power" or
> "concentration of power" in the sense that we have less and less power over
> the hardware and software that runs in the cloud and that we have less power
> in case of legal disputes or granting of illegal access to our data (e.g.
> NSA wiretapping)
>
> The other day I wanted to write a test app in Python 3.0 on Google App
> engine to examine Python 3.0's performance and new syntax etc. With the
> Google app engine, I did not have the 'power' to do that. A whole bunch of
> us would have to 'beg' Google (or petition them as a crowd) to support
> Python 3.0. That's a loss of individual choice. The other and bigger issue
> is that Google now employs on full-time salary Python's creator and
> maintainer. So Python as a language is now in sync with Google's strategy
> not disruptive of it, i.e. more control for Google and less for the
> developers (I can cite many things they've omitted from Python for security
> reasons that actually come across as business model control measures, not
> security measures)
>
> When it comes to Amazon, I find the model to be very liberal and
> empowering. However, it also puts ultimate power in the hands of someone
> else. So as developers (speaking for myself and other developers,) we trade
> freedom for convenience. It's definitely a legitimate product/service, much
> like the electric utility companies. However, that's exactly my concern.
> We're moving to SmartGrid architecture that enables the consumers to pump
> surplus locally generated energy back into the grid, i.e. a cooperative
> architecture moving closer and closer to P2P empowerment and farther and
> farther from concentrated power. If that's happening in the energy grid, why
> can't the same be happening in the information grid?
>
> Once individuals own the means to production, including the production of
> energy, we have the means to move towards a peer production based
> society/economy, where simple regulation mechanisms would allow power to
> belong to the whole (all peers own power collectively, and no single party
> has manipulative/controlling power over the whole.)
>
> For such a P2P world order, please feel free to browse the much-more
> evolved latest version of P2P Energy Economy<http://p2pfoundation.net/P2P_Energy_Economy>.
> It does not talk about the information grid, only the power grid, but it
> assumes from the start that the information grid is fully decentralized. And
> this starting assumption is about the existence of a P2P Cloud, for both
> energy and information, not a centralized cloud for energy/information.  You
> can think of the current DumbGrid as a centralized cloud for energy
> production, since utility networks have many production nodes within, i.e.
> they are distributed if not exactly 'cloud' like. And I think SmartGrid is
> aiming at a distributed grid, and ultimately a decentralized grid.
>
> I apologize if this is too intensely focused on personal freedom and not
> enough on convenience but I find that convenience often eats away at our
> personal freedom, so I tend to promote sustainable personal freedom over
> convenience that becomes laziness that becomes dependence.
>
> Marc
> http://p2pfoundation.net/P2P_Energy_Economy
>
> http://evolvingtrends.wordpress.com/2008/07/23/google-app-engine-threat-or-opportunity/
> http://evolvingtrends.wordpress.com/best-of/
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 10:46 AM, Jerry Michalski <jerry at sociate.com>wrote:
>
>> Please jump in tomorrow, Marc. We'd love to have your approach represented
>> and understand how it differs from the "normal" cloud(s).
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Jerry
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 10:26 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> I would be interested in discussing IPv6 built-in point-to-point
>>> tunneling over TCP/IP (for PCs and mobile devices) as it relates to P2P
>>> Cloud ...
>>>
>>> I view the centralized cloud as a sham: a ploy to concentrate power in
>>> the hands of companies that can afford to have massive data centers, like
>>> Google, Amazon, MS, etc ...
>>>
>>> Currently P2P cloud is only possible on non-mobile devices via UDP hole
>>> punching (and reliable UDP, e.g. see Azureus DHT, Skype, etc, and uTorrent
>>> which I believe now uses UDP as a file transfer protocol not just for DHT)
>>> On mobile devices the carrier's gateway only let in TCP traffic so it's
>>> impossible to have a P2P Cloud at the moment, and it's the last reason in my
>>> drawer for why centrally owned clouds should exist (e.g. Dean's idea for
>>> offloading mobile processing to personal cloud in a data center,) but with
>>> IPv6 it is possible to have a P2P Cloud for both PCs and mobile devices.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 8:51 AM, Dean Collins <Dean at cognation.net>wrote:
>>>
>>>>  What I want to know Jerry is when are we going to see the release of
>>>> 'personal cloud computing'.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It hit me back in 2006 when working with the Savaje java handsets that
>>>> all the problems with mobile handsets (limited memory, limited processing
>>>> power) could all be solved by just using the device as a remote 'viewer' to
>>>> an 'external computer'.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Eg. Nothing more than a browser to processes and applications running on
>>>> a paired computer in the carriers data center.
>>>>
>>>> http://deancollinsblog.blogspot.com/2006/05/javaone.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://deancollinsblog.blogspot.com/2007/08/neo-handset-developments.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Although the G1 handset has moved down this path 'a little bit', it's
>>>> really disappointing this 'cloud resource' concept hasn't been pushed
>>>> further.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So apart from web services like email and other asp services when are we
>>>> going to see more innovative 'personal computing aspects
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Dean Collins
>>>> Cognation Inc
>>>> dean at cognation.net
>>>> +1-212-203-4357   New York
>>>> +61-2-9016-5642   (Sydney in-dial).
>>>> +44-20-3129-6001 (London in-dial).
>>>>   ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Yi-Tan at googlegroups.com [mailto:Yi-Tan at googlegroups.com] *On
>>>> Behalf Of *Jerry Michalski
>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, 18 January 2009 11:04 AM
>>>> *To:* Yi-Tan List
>>>> *Subject:* Yi-Tan Tech Community Call 214 - The Meaning of Clouds -
>>>> 1:30pm EST, Monday January 19, 2009
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Greetings,
>>>>
>>>> First, my apologies for scheduling the Yi-Tan call on MLK Day, but it
>>>> seemed that something bigger was going to trump us on Tuesday. May it warm
>>>> up a little for the inaugural.
>>>>
>>>> We dipped into *cloud computing* recently<http://www.yi-tan.com/wiki/yi-tan/Cloud_Computing?wikiPageId=1555274>;
>>>> now we're headed a bit deeper (higher?), guided by Pat Kerpan<http://www.yi-tan.com/wiki/yi-tan/Pat_Kerpan?wikiPageId=1596399>,
>>>> CTO of CohesiveFT <http://cohesiveft.com/>.
>>>>
>>>> Today's cloud offerings from Google <http://code.google.com/appengine/>,
>>>> Amazon <http://www.amazon.com/gp/browse.html?node=201590011>and others
>>>> aren't interchangeable. They imply different decisions and uses, which
>>>> naturally appeal to different sorts of clients. CohesiveFT's Elastic
>>>> Server <http://elasticserver.com/> and VPN-Cubed<http://www.cohesiveft.com/vpncubed/>smooth and secure the experience.
>>>>
>>>> With Pat, let's discuss:
>>>>
>>>>    - What's a grid, what's a cloud and how do they differ?
>>>>    - How has the cloud evolved over time? What needs improvement next?
>>>>    - What's a solution stack?
>>>>    - When might most corporate computing happen in clouds (if ever)?
>>>>
>>>> More info:
>>>>
>>>>    - Pat's post
>>>>    <http://blog.elasticserver.com/2008/04/cloudy-weather-ahead.html>on
>>>>    the new cloud offerings.
>>>>    - Great cloud survey<http://www.economist.com/specialreports/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12411864>in The Economist. (thanks, Mike!)
>>>>
>>>> As always, an IRC Chat<http://www.yi-tan.com/wiki/yi-tan/irc_chat?wikiPageId=163280>will be available during the call,
>>>> here. And let's continue tweeting, using #yitan<http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23yitan>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>> Date:    Monday, January 19, 2009
>>>> Time:    10:30 PST, 1:30 EST
>>>>
>>>> Dial-in Number: 1-712-580-1100
>>>> Participant Access Code: 778778
>>>>
>>>> Wiki goodness at www.yi-tan.com
>>>>
>>>> Please feel free to forward this note to people you think would be
>>>> interested in these calls.
>>>>
>>>> Talk to you on the call!
>>>>
>>>> Bestest,
>>>>
>>>> Jerry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Yi Tan List" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to Yi-Tan at googlegroups.com
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> Yi-Tan+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com<Yi-Tan%2Bunsubscribe at googlegroups.com>
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/Yi-Tan
>> -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
>>
>>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch_listcultures.org/attachments/20090118/2e30b686/attachment-0001.html>