[p2p-research] Fwd: Yi-Tan Tech Community Call 214 - The Meaning of Clouds - 1:30pm EST, Monday January 19, 2009

Sun Jan 18 20:27:18 CET 2009

fyi,

On Big Business Clouds and the People's Clouds...

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: Yi-Tan Tech Community Call 214 - The Meaning of Clouds - 1:30pm
EST, Monday January 19, 2009
To: Yi-Tan at googlegroups.com

OK, I'll try my best as far as making the conference call

I just want to note that there is nothing wrong with "centralization" in and
by itself as an architectural pattern. For example, unlike the starfish, our
brain is placed centrally in our skull, not distributed throughout our body
(the nervous system is another story.) So from an architectural point of
view both centralization and decentralization have their uses.

But what I'm frustrated about is the "centralization of power" or
"concentration of power" in the sense that we have less and less power over
the hardware and software that runs in the cloud and that we have less power
in case of legal disputes or granting of illegal access to our data (e.g.
NSA wiretapping)

The other day I wanted to write a test app in Python 3.0 on Google App
engine to examine Python 3.0's performance and new syntax etc. With the
Google app engine, I did not have the 'power' to do that. A whole bunch of
us would have to 'beg' Google (or petition them as a crowd) to support
Python 3.0. That's a loss of individual choice. The other and bigger issue
is that Google now employs on full-time salary Python's creator and
maintainer. So Python as a language is now in sync with Google's strategy
not disruptive of it, i.e. more control for Google and less for the
developers (I can cite many things they've omitted from Python for security
reasons that actually come across as business model control measures, not
security measures)

When it comes to Amazon, I find the model to be very liberal and empowering.
However, it also puts ultimate power in the hands of someone else. So as
developers (speaking for myself and other developers,) we trade freedom for
convenience. It's definitely a legitimate product/service, much like the
electric utility companies. However, that's exactly my concern. We're moving
to SmartGrid architecture that enables the consumers to pump surplus locally
generated energy back into the grid, i.e. a cooperative architecture moving
closer and closer to P2P empowerment and farther and farther from
concentrated power. If that's happening in the energy grid, why can't the
same be happening in the information grid?

Once individuals own the means to production, including the production of
energy, we have the means to move towards a peer production based
society/economy, where simple regulation mechanisms would allow power to
belong to the whole (all peers own power collectively, and no single party
has manipulative/controlling power over the whole.)

For such a P2P world order, please feel free to browse the much-more evolved
latest version of P2P Energy
Economy<http://p2pfoundation.net/P2P_Energy_Economy>.
It does not talk about the information grid, only the power grid, but it
assumes from the start that the information grid is fully decentralized. And
this starting assumption is about the existence of a P2P Cloud, for both
energy and information, not a centralized cloud for energy/information.  You
can think of the current DumbGrid as a centralized cloud for energy
production, since utility networks have many production nodes within, i.e.
they are distributed if not exactly 'cloud' like. And I think SmartGrid is
aiming at a distributed grid, and ultimately a decentralized grid.

I apologize if this is too intensely focused on personal freedom and not
enough on convenience but I find that convenience often eats away at our
personal freedom, so I tend to promote sustainable personal freedom over
convenience that becomes laziness that becomes dependence.

Marc
http://p2pfoundation.net/P2P_Energy_Economy
http://evolvingtrends.wordpress.com/2008/07/23/google-app-engine-threat-or-opportunity/
http://evolvingtrends.wordpress.com/best-of/

On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 10:46 AM, Jerry Michalski <jerry at sociate.com> wrote:

> Please jump in tomorrow, Marc. We'd love to have your approach represented
> and understand how it differs from the "normal" cloud(s).
>
> Cheers,
> Jerry
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 10:26 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I would be interested in discussing IPv6 built-in point-to-point tunneling
>> over TCP/IP (for PCs and mobile devices) as it relates to P2P Cloud ...
>>
>> I view the centralized cloud as a sham: a ploy to concentrate power in the
>> hands of companies that can afford to have massive data centers, like
>> Google, Amazon, MS, etc ...
>>
>> Currently P2P cloud is only possible on non-mobile devices via UDP hole
>> punching (and reliable UDP, e.g. see Azureus DHT, Skype, etc, and uTorrent
>> which I believe now uses UDP as a file transfer protocol not just for DHT)
>> On mobile devices the carrier's gateway only let in TCP traffic so it's
>> impossible to have a P2P Cloud at the moment, and it's the last reason in my
>> drawer for why centrally owned clouds should exist (e.g. Dean's idea for
>> offloading mobile processing to personal cloud in a data center,) but with
>> IPv6 it is possible to have a P2P Cloud for both PCs and mobile devices.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 8:51 AM, Dean Collins <Dean at cognation.net> wrote:
>>
>>>  What I want to know Jerry is when are we going to see the release of
>>> 'personal cloud computing'.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It hit me back in 2006 when working with the Savaje java handsets that
>>> all the problems with mobile handsets (limited memory, limited processing
>>> power) could all be solved by just using the device as a remote 'viewer' to
>>> an 'external computer'.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Eg. Nothing more than a browser to processes and applications running on
>>> a paired computer in the carriers data center.
>>>
>>> http://deancollinsblog.blogspot.com/2006/05/javaone.html
>>>
>>> http://deancollinsblog.blogspot.com/2007/08/neo-handset-developments.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Although the G1 handset has moved down this path 'a little bit', it's
>>> really disappointing this 'cloud resource' concept hasn't been pushed
>>> further.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So apart from web services like email and other asp services when are we
>>> going to see more innovative 'personal computing aspects
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Dean Collins
>>> Cognation Inc
>>> dean at cognation.net
>>> +1-212-203-4357   New York
>>> +61-2-9016-5642   (Sydney in-dial).
>>> +44-20-3129-6001 (London in-dial).
>>>   ------------------------------
>>>
>>> *From:* Yi-Tan at googlegroups.com [mailto:Yi-Tan at googlegroups.com] *On
>>> Behalf Of *Jerry Michalski
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, 18 January 2009 11:04 AM
>>> *To:* Yi-Tan List
>>> *Subject:* Yi-Tan Tech Community Call 214 - The Meaning of Clouds -
>>> 1:30pm EST, Monday January 19, 2009
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Greetings,
>>>
>>> First, my apologies for scheduling the Yi-Tan call on MLK Day, but it
>>> seemed that something bigger was going to trump us on Tuesday. May it warm
>>> up a little for the inaugural.
>>>
>>> We dipped into *cloud computing* recently<http://www.yi-tan.com/wiki/yi-tan/Cloud_Computing?wikiPageId=1555274>;
>>> now we're headed a bit deeper (higher?), guided by Pat Kerpan<http://www.yi-tan.com/wiki/yi-tan/Pat_Kerpan?wikiPageId=1596399>,
>>> CTO of CohesiveFT <http://cohesiveft.com/>.
>>>
>>> Today's cloud offerings from Google <http://code.google.com/appengine/>,
>>> Amazon <http://www.amazon.com/gp/browse.html?node=201590011>and others
>>> aren't interchangeable. They imply different decisions and uses, which
>>> naturally appeal to different sorts of clients. CohesiveFT's Elastic
>>> Server <http://elasticserver.com/> and VPN-Cubed<http://www.cohesiveft.com/vpncubed/>smooth and secure the experience.
>>>
>>> With Pat, let's discuss:
>>>
>>>    - What's a grid, what's a cloud and how do they differ?
>>>    - How has the cloud evolved over time? What needs improvement next?
>>>    - What's a solution stack?
>>>    - When might most corporate computing happen in clouds (if ever)?
>>>
>>> More info:
>>>
>>>    - Pat's post
>>>    <http://blog.elasticserver.com/2008/04/cloudy-weather-ahead.html>on
>>>    the new cloud offerings.
>>>    - Great cloud survey<http://www.economist.com/specialreports/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12411864>in The Economist. (thanks, Mike!)
>>>
>>> As always, an IRC Chat<http://www.yi-tan.com/wiki/yi-tan/irc_chat?wikiPageId=163280>will be available during the call,
>>> here. And let's continue tweeting, using #yitan<http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23yitan>
>>> .
>>>
>>> Date:    Monday, January 19, 2009
>>> Time:    10:30 PST, 1:30 EST
>>>
>>> Dial-in Number: 1-712-580-1100
>>> Participant Access Code: 778778
>>>
>>> Wiki goodness at www.yi-tan.com
>>>
>>> Please feel free to forward this note to people you think would be
>>> interested in these calls.
>>>
>>> Talk to you on the call!
>>>
>>> Bestest,
>>>
>>> Jerry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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