[p2p-research] Fwd: Where does the "lost" money go ? can we find it and get it back ?

Tue Jan 6 08:00:11 CET 2009

yeah I agree that 'super rich' is not a monolithic or totalistic conspiracy

I am over-generalising a complex of formal and informal institutions
with all sorts of internal contradictions

however, the range of explainations I have received on this set of
fundamental questions is beyond puzzling... its very disturbing....

On 1/6/09, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Nicholas,
>
> the super-rich are also differentiated, they invest in various sectors, some
> make good decisions, some are lucky, others are not. Various governments may
> support different sectors. Of course, 'haves' have a lot better chance to
> survive and even strengthen themselves than have nots, who suffer
> disproportionally from crisis, and indeed as you say, others will use the
> opportunity to dispossess even more!
>
> I just want to guard against any conspiracy theory that sees a small clique
> controlling everything and mastering reality, while the rest of us are just
> spectators.
>
> Your speculations are undoubtedly researchable,
>
> MICHEL
>
> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 4:50 AM, Nicholas Roberts <
> nicholas at themediasociety.org> wrote:
>
>> it seems to me that for some folks, they win, even when they lose... do
>> you
>> think the super rich are losing more, proportionally, than the poor... I
>> doubt it... indeed for many, its an opportunity..
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accumulation_by_dispossession
>>
>> I wonder whether the bank accounts in tax havens have gotten bigger or
>> smaller in proportion to the losses in the more public and accountable
>> balance sheets
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nicholas Roberts
>> [im] skype:niccolor
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 1:10 AM, Michel Bauwens
>> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Nicholas,
>>>
>>> Undoubtedly, some sectors and some parties profited, but many 'super
>>> rich'
>>> lost a lot of money as well. I don't think the banks voluntarily would
>>> loose
>>> billions of dollars, and if you read the story of why Goldman Sachs
>>> didn't
>>> loose, it was pretty much a matter of someone noticing something odd, and
>>> retiring in time before it busted ...
>>>
>>> I'm trusting the interpretation that this money was effectively lost, and
>>> that the bailout will not immediately trigger inflation (but it will
>>> later
>>> when the volume starts exceeding the loss of value).
>>>
>>> Not sure if this works for the US, but in my home country, money  for the
>>> bailouts is created by the government borrowing from banks (including
>>> some
>>> of the banks needing the bailout), and the interest on such borrowing,
>>> immediately goes to the budget, which is thus diminishes, and already
>>> cuts
>>> in social spending need to be made.
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 7:28 PM, <nicholas at themediasociety.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I do understand that money is created by private loans... but there is
>>>> also money made by nation states...
>>>>
>>>> by definiton, the money that is lost in a transaction goes to the
>>>> winning party in that transaction... so, who is the winning party ? is
>>>> it legitamte that the won that moeny ? if not, lets get it back
>>>>
>>>> my feeling is that the bubbles, booms and busts are used by the super
>>>> rich to enrich themselves by their rich deputies by exploiting
>>>> everyone else
>>>>
>>>> that the money lost, makes its way to the super rich, is taken out of
>>>> public companies and exchanges, and ends up in the shadow and private
>>>> banking systems... in tax havens, private accounts etc
>>>>
>>>> the money is transferred, and is accumulated
>>>>
>>>> therefore, it can be found, and redistributed
>>>>
>>>> I wonder whether the equivalent to the stock exchanges in the shadow
>>>> banking world are growing, while the public exchanges are shrinking
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 1/5/09, nicholas at themediasociety.org <nicholas at themediasociety.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > I must say, I find the fact that something as fundamental as the money
>>>> > system so open to interpretation really very vexing
>>>> >
>>>> > It seems to me, that it would be very useful for many people, of these
>>>> > murky details where exposed to the light of public scrutiny
>>>> >
>>>> > how can we have democratic control of finance, industry etc if we dont
>>>> > have a simple, commonly understood money system ?
>>>> >
>>>> > thanks to all that replied at length, I will read, watch etc the
>>>> > material and come back to the lists soon
>>>> >
>>>> > On 1/5/09, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> Hi Thomas,
>>>> >>
>>>> >> but your answer then leaves the question: where is the money gone
>>>> >> that
>>>> has
>>>> >> been wiped out as value from the stock market and housing prices?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> since in your account it is not lost, where is it and who has it?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I find your answer to be very counter-intuitive and the opposite of
>>>> what I
>>>> >> would assume.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> If you cannot repay it, it's lost, but if you repay it, it is again
>>>> >> available for further loans and as basis for fractional reserve, and
>>>> >> therefore, in my view, not destroyed.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Michel
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Thomas Greco -- thg
>>>> >> <thg at mindspring.com>wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>>  Money is created when banks make a loan; it is destroyed when the
>>>> loan
>>>> >>> is
>>>> >>> repaid.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> The bailout will be inflationary because the debts that are being
>>>> shifted
>>>> >>> from the private sector to the public sector are debts that cannot
>>>> >>> be
>>>> >>> paid
>>>> >>> by the original debtors. Government will take the loss, not by using
>>>> tax
>>>> >>> revenues to repay them but by monetizing more government debt. That
>>>> will
>>>> >>> dilute the value of all the money already in circulation.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Tom
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> >>> *From:* Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>>>> >>> *To:* Nicholas Roberts <nicholas at themediasociety.org>
>>>> >>> *Cc:* Thomas Greco -- thg <thg at mindspring.com> ; Peer-To-Peer
>>>> Research
>>>> >>> List <p2presearch at listcultures.org>
>>>> >>> *Sent:* Sunday, January 04, 2009 10:55 AM
>>>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [p2p-research] Fwd: Where does the "lost" money go ?
>>>> can
>>>> >>> we
>>>> >>> find it and get it back ?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Hi Nicholas,
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Does the money have to 'go' anywhere ...
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Since it is created 'out of nothing' through fractional reserve
>>>> banking,
>>>> >>> why can't it be destroyed just as easily, in the equivalent of a
>>>> virtual
>>>> >>> fire?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I understand from some remarks, 'the bailout won't create inflation
>>>> >>> because
>>>> >>> it's merely trying to replace lost money', that this money was
>>>> >>> effectively
>>>> >>> destroyed.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Perhaps monetary transformation expert Thomas Greco has some insight
>>>> to
>>>> >>> your question?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> see also http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Money
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Michel
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 12:05 AM, Nicholas Roberts <
>>>> >>> nicholas at themediasociety.org> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> --
>>>> >>>> Nicholas Roberts
>>>> >>>> [im] skype:niccolor
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>> >>>> From: <nicholas at themediasociety.org>
>>>> >>>> Date: Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 5:16 PM
>>>> >>>> Subject: Re: Where does the "lost" money go ? can we find it and
>>>> >>>> get
>>>> it
>>>> >>>> back ?
>>>> >>>> To: Dean Baker <dean.baker1 at verizon.net>
>>>> >>>> Cc: Noam Chomsky <chomsky at mit.edu>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> happy new year Dean
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> who takes it out of circulation ? how ?
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> is it destroyed ? made null ?
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> how much of the wealth from a bubble gets accumulated by the rich
>>>> >>>> promoting the bubble ?
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> how much gets taken out of circulation ?
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> is there a good reference to this ? a website or book ? I am
>>>> >>>> interested in the formal process and also the reality...
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> thanks in advance
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> -N
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> On 1/3/09, Dean Baker <dean.baker1 at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>> >>>> > Hi Nicholas,
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > It's just like counterfeit money that has been seized by police.
>>>> It is
>>>> >>>> > wealth that is taken out of circulation. It means in principle
>>>> that
>>>> >>>> > the
>>>> >>>> > people who did not own stock and did not lose wealth can be
>>>> >>>> > better
>>>> >>>> > off,
>>>> >>>> > assuming that the demand generated by this stock wealth (people
>>>> spend
>>>> >>>> > in
>>>> >>>> > part based on the wealth they hold in stocks) is replaced by
>>>> >>>> > other
>>>> >>>> sources.
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > regards,
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > dean
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > Nicholas Roberts wrote:
>>>> >>>> >> hi Dean
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >> this is a really obvious question, but I have yet to find a good
>>>> >>>> answer;
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >> where does the money "lost" in the stock and housing bubbles go
>>>> >>>> >> ?
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >> is it destroyed ? how and where ?
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >> is it transferred ? how and where ?
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >> is it accumulated ? by whom, how, where  ?
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >> can we get it back ?
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >> are there any good flow diagrams that explain this in plain
>>>> >>>> >> terms
>>>> for
>>>> >>>> >> regular folks...
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > --
>>>> >>>> > Dean Baker (baker at cepr.net)
>>>> >>>> > Co-Director
>>>> >>>> > Center for Economic and Policy Research 1611 Connecticut Ave., NW
>>>> >>>> > Washington, DC 20009
>>>> >>>> > 202-293-5380 (ext 114)
>>>> >>>> > 202-332-5218 (H)
>>>> >>>> > www.cepr.net
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>  --
>>>> >>>> --
>>>> >>>> Nicholas Roberts
>>>> >>>> [im] skype:niccolor
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> >>>>
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>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> --
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>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> --
>>>> >> The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer
>>>> >> alternatives.
>>>> >>
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>>>> >>
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>>>> at
>>>> >>
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>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> > --
>>>> > Nicholas Roberts
>>>> > [im] skype:niccolor
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> --
>>>> Nicholas Roberts
>>>> [im] skype:niccolor
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>> alternatives.
>>>
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
> The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer
> alternatives.
>
> Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at
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>
> Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499; interview at
> http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html
> BEST VIDEO ON P2P:
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>
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>

-- 
-- 
Nicholas Roberts
[im] skype:niccolor