[p2p-research] Fwd: Where does the "lost" money go ? can we find it and get it back ?

Tue Jan 6 05:16:04 CET 2009

Hi Nicholas,

the super-rich are also differentiated, they invest in various sectors, some
make good decisions, some are lucky, others are not. Various governments may
support different sectors. Of course, 'haves' have a lot better chance to
survive and even strengthen themselves than have nots, who suffer
disproportionally from crisis, and indeed as you say, others will use the
opportunity to dispossess even more!

I just want to guard against any conspiracy theory that sees a small clique
controlling everything and mastering reality, while the rest of us are just
spectators.

Your speculations are undoubtedly researchable,

MICHEL

On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 4:50 AM, Nicholas Roberts <
nicholas at themediasociety.org> wrote:

> it seems to me that for some folks, they win, even when they lose... do you
> think the super rich are losing more, proportionally, than the poor... I
> doubt it... indeed for many, its an opportunity..
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accumulation_by_dispossession
>
> I wonder whether the bank accounts in tax havens have gotten bigger or
> smaller in proportion to the losses in the more public and accountable
> balance sheets
>
>
> --
> Nicholas Roberts
> [im] skype:niccolor
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 1:10 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Dear Nicholas,
>>
>> Undoubtedly, some sectors and some parties profited, but many 'super rich'
>> lost a lot of money as well. I don't think the banks voluntarily would loose
>> billions of dollars, and if you read the story of why Goldman Sachs didn't
>> loose, it was pretty much a matter of someone noticing something odd, and
>> retiring in time before it busted ...
>>
>> I'm trusting the interpretation that this money was effectively lost, and
>> that the bailout will not immediately trigger inflation (but it will later
>> when the volume starts exceeding the loss of value).
>>
>> Not sure if this works for the US, but in my home country, money  for the
>> bailouts is created by the government borrowing from banks (including some
>> of the banks needing the bailout), and the interest on such borrowing,
>> immediately goes to the budget, which is thus diminishes, and already cuts
>> in social spending need to be made.
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 7:28 PM, <nicholas at themediasociety.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I do understand that money is created by private loans... but there is
>>> also money made by nation states...
>>>
>>> by definiton, the money that is lost in a transaction goes to the
>>> winning party in that transaction... so, who is the winning party ? is
>>> it legitamte that the won that moeny ? if not, lets get it back
>>>
>>> my feeling is that the bubbles, booms and busts are used by the super
>>> rich to enrich themselves by their rich deputies by exploiting
>>> everyone else
>>>
>>> that the money lost, makes its way to the super rich, is taken out of
>>> public companies and exchanges, and ends up in the shadow and private
>>> banking systems... in tax havens, private accounts etc
>>>
>>> the money is transferred, and is accumulated
>>>
>>> therefore, it can be found, and redistributed
>>>
>>> I wonder whether the equivalent to the stock exchanges in the shadow
>>> banking world are growing, while the public exchanges are shrinking
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1/5/09, nicholas at themediasociety.org <nicholas at themediasociety.org>
>>> wrote:
>>> > I must say, I find the fact that something as fundamental as the money
>>> > system so open to interpretation really very vexing
>>> >
>>> > It seems to me, that it would be very useful for many people, of these
>>> > murky details where exposed to the light of public scrutiny
>>> >
>>> > how can we have democratic control of finance, industry etc if we dont
>>> > have a simple, commonly understood money system ?
>>> >
>>> > thanks to all that replied at length, I will read, watch etc the
>>> > material and come back to the lists soon
>>> >
>>> > On 1/5/09, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> Hi Thomas,
>>> >>
>>> >> but your answer then leaves the question: where is the money gone that
>>> has
>>> >> been wiped out as value from the stock market and housing prices?
>>> >>
>>> >> since in your account it is not lost, where is it and who has it?
>>> >>
>>> >> I find your answer to be very counter-intuitive and the opposite of
>>> what I
>>> >> would assume.
>>> >>
>>> >> If you cannot repay it, it's lost, but if you repay it, it is again
>>> >> available for further loans and as basis for fractional reserve, and
>>> >> therefore, in my view, not destroyed.
>>> >>
>>> >> Michel
>>> >>
>>> >> On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Thomas Greco -- thg
>>> >> <thg at mindspring.com>wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>>  Money is created when banks make a loan; it is destroyed when the
>>> loan
>>> >>> is
>>> >>> repaid.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> The bailout will be inflationary because the debts that are being
>>> shifted
>>> >>> from the private sector to the public sector are debts that cannot be
>>> >>> paid
>>> >>> by the original debtors. Government will take the loss, not by using
>>> tax
>>> >>> revenues to repay them but by monetizing more government debt. That
>>> will
>>> >>> dilute the value of all the money already in circulation.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Tom
>>> >>>
>>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> >>> *From:* Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>>> >>> *To:* Nicholas Roberts <nicholas at themediasociety.org>
>>> >>> *Cc:* Thomas Greco -- thg <thg at mindspring.com> ; Peer-To-Peer
>>> Research
>>> >>> List <p2presearch at listcultures.org>
>>> >>> *Sent:* Sunday, January 04, 2009 10:55 AM
>>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [p2p-research] Fwd: Where does the "lost" money go ?
>>> can
>>> >>> we
>>> >>> find it and get it back ?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Hi Nicholas,
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Does the money have to 'go' anywhere ...
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Since it is created 'out of nothing' through fractional reserve
>>> banking,
>>> >>> why can't it be destroyed just as easily, in the equivalent of a
>>> virtual
>>> >>> fire?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I understand from some remarks, 'the bailout won't create inflation
>>> >>> because
>>> >>> it's merely trying to replace lost money', that this money was
>>> >>> effectively
>>> >>> destroyed.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Perhaps monetary transformation expert Thomas Greco has some insight
>>> to
>>> >>> your question?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> see also http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Money
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Michel
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 12:05 AM, Nicholas Roberts <
>>> >>> nicholas at themediasociety.org> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> --
>>> >>>> Nicholas Roberts
>>> >>>> [im] skype:niccolor
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> >>>> From: <nicholas at themediasociety.org>
>>> >>>> Date: Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 5:16 PM
>>> >>>> Subject: Re: Where does the "lost" money go ? can we find it and get
>>> it
>>> >>>> back ?
>>> >>>> To: Dean Baker <dean.baker1 at verizon.net>
>>> >>>> Cc: Noam Chomsky <chomsky at mit.edu>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> happy new year Dean
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> who takes it out of circulation ? how ?
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> is it destroyed ? made null ?
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> how much of the wealth from a bubble gets accumulated by the rich
>>> >>>> promoting the bubble ?
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> how much gets taken out of circulation ?
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> is there a good reference to this ? a website or book ? I am
>>> >>>> interested in the formal process and also the reality...
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> thanks in advance
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> -N
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On 1/3/09, Dean Baker <dean.baker1 at verizon.net> wrote:
>>> >>>> > Hi Nicholas,
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > It's just like counterfeit money that has been seized by police.
>>> It is
>>> >>>> > wealth that is taken out of circulation. It means in principle
>>> that
>>> >>>> > the
>>> >>>> > people who did not own stock and did not lose wealth can be better
>>> >>>> > off,
>>> >>>> > assuming that the demand generated by this stock wealth (people
>>> spend
>>> >>>> > in
>>> >>>> > part based on the wealth they hold in stocks) is replaced by other
>>> >>>> sources.
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > regards,
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > dean
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > Nicholas Roberts wrote:
>>> >>>> >> hi Dean
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> this is a really obvious question, but I have yet to find a good
>>> >>>> answer;
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> where does the money "lost" in the stock and housing bubbles go ?
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> is it destroyed ? how and where ?
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> is it transferred ? how and where ?
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> is it accumulated ? by whom, how, where  ?
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> can we get it back ?
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> are there any good flow diagrams that explain this in plain terms
>>> for
>>> >>>> >> regular folks...
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > --
>>> >>>> > Dean Baker (baker at cepr.net)
>>> >>>> > Co-Director
>>> >>>> > Center for Economic and Policy Research 1611 Connecticut Ave., NW
>>> >>>> > Washington, DC 20009
>>> >>>> > 202-293-5380 (ext 114)
>>> >>>> > 202-332-5218 (H)
>>> >>>> > www.cepr.net
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>  --
>>> >>>> --
>>> >>>> Nicholas Roberts
>>> >>>> [im] skype:niccolor
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
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>>> >>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
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>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
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>>> >>
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>>> >>
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>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > --
>>> > Nicholas Roberts
>>> > [im] skype:niccolor
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> --
>>> Nicholas Roberts
>>> [im] skype:niccolor
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer
>> alternatives.
>>
>> Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at
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>>
>> Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499; interview at
>> http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html
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>>
>
>

-- 
The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer
alternatives.

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http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html
BEST VIDEO ON P2P:
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