[p2p-research] Fwd: Where does the "lost" money go ? can we find it and get it back ?

Mon Jan 5 22:50:22 CET 2009

it seems to me that for some folks, they win, even when they lose... do you
think the super rich are losing more, proportionally, than the poor... I
doubt it... indeed for many, its an opportunity..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accumulation_by_dispossession

I wonder whether the bank accounts in tax havens have gotten bigger or
smaller in proportion to the losses in the more public and accountable
balance sheets

-- 
Nicholas Roberts
[im] skype:niccolor

On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 1:10 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:

> Dear Nicholas,
>
> Undoubtedly, some sectors and some parties profited, but many 'super rich'
> lost a lot of money as well. I don't think the banks voluntarily would loose
> billions of dollars, and if you read the story of why Goldman Sachs didn't
> loose, it was pretty much a matter of someone noticing something odd, and
> retiring in time before it busted ...
>
> I'm trusting the interpretation that this money was effectively lost, and
> that the bailout will not immediately trigger inflation (but it will later
> when the volume starts exceeding the loss of value).
>
> Not sure if this works for the US, but in my home country, money  for the
> bailouts is created by the government borrowing from banks (including some
> of the banks needing the bailout), and the interest on such borrowing,
> immediately goes to the budget, which is thus diminishes, and already cuts
> in social spending need to be made.
>
> Michel
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 7:28 PM, <nicholas at themediasociety.org> wrote:
>
>> I do understand that money is created by private loans... but there is
>> also money made by nation states...
>>
>> by definiton, the money that is lost in a transaction goes to the
>> winning party in that transaction... so, who is the winning party ? is
>> it legitamte that the won that moeny ? if not, lets get it back
>>
>> my feeling is that the bubbles, booms and busts are used by the super
>> rich to enrich themselves by their rich deputies by exploiting
>> everyone else
>>
>> that the money lost, makes its way to the super rich, is taken out of
>> public companies and exchanges, and ends up in the shadow and private
>> banking systems... in tax havens, private accounts etc
>>
>> the money is transferred, and is accumulated
>>
>> therefore, it can be found, and redistributed
>>
>> I wonder whether the equivalent to the stock exchanges in the shadow
>> banking world are growing, while the public exchanges are shrinking
>>
>>
>>
>> On 1/5/09, nicholas at themediasociety.org <nicholas at themediasociety.org>
>> wrote:
>> > I must say, I find the fact that something as fundamental as the money
>> > system so open to interpretation really very vexing
>> >
>> > It seems to me, that it would be very useful for many people, of these
>> > murky details where exposed to the light of public scrutiny
>> >
>> > how can we have democratic control of finance, industry etc if we dont
>> > have a simple, commonly understood money system ?
>> >
>> > thanks to all that replied at length, I will read, watch etc the
>> > material and come back to the lists soon
>> >
>> > On 1/5/09, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> Hi Thomas,
>> >>
>> >> but your answer then leaves the question: where is the money gone that
>> has
>> >> been wiped out as value from the stock market and housing prices?
>> >>
>> >> since in your account it is not lost, where is it and who has it?
>> >>
>> >> I find your answer to be very counter-intuitive and the opposite of
>> what I
>> >> would assume.
>> >>
>> >> If you cannot repay it, it's lost, but if you repay it, it is again
>> >> available for further loans and as basis for fractional reserve, and
>> >> therefore, in my view, not destroyed.
>> >>
>> >> Michel
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Thomas Greco -- thg
>> >> <thg at mindspring.com>wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>  Money is created when banks make a loan; it is destroyed when the
>> loan
>> >>> is
>> >>> repaid.
>> >>>
>> >>> The bailout will be inflationary because the debts that are being
>> shifted
>> >>> from the private sector to the public sector are debts that cannot be
>> >>> paid
>> >>> by the original debtors. Government will take the loss, not by using
>> tax
>> >>> revenues to repay them but by monetizing more government debt. That
>> will
>> >>> dilute the value of all the money already in circulation.
>> >>>
>> >>> Tom
>> >>>
>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>> *From:* Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>> >>> *To:* Nicholas Roberts <nicholas at themediasociety.org>
>> >>> *Cc:* Thomas Greco -- thg <thg at mindspring.com> ; Peer-To-Peer
>> Research
>> >>> List <p2presearch at listcultures.org>
>> >>> *Sent:* Sunday, January 04, 2009 10:55 AM
>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [p2p-research] Fwd: Where does the "lost" money go ?
>> can
>> >>> we
>> >>> find it and get it back ?
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi Nicholas,
>> >>>
>> >>> Does the money have to 'go' anywhere ...
>> >>>
>> >>> Since it is created 'out of nothing' through fractional reserve
>> banking,
>> >>> why can't it be destroyed just as easily, in the equivalent of a
>> virtual
>> >>> fire?
>> >>>
>> >>> I understand from some remarks, 'the bailout won't create inflation
>> >>> because
>> >>> it's merely trying to replace lost money', that this money was
>> >>> effectively
>> >>> destroyed.
>> >>>
>> >>> Perhaps monetary transformation expert Thomas Greco has some insight
>> to
>> >>> your question?
>> >>>
>> >>> see also http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Money
>> >>>
>> >>> Michel
>> >>>
>> >>> On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 12:05 AM, Nicholas Roberts <
>> >>> nicholas at themediasociety.org> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> Nicholas Roberts
>> >>>> [im] skype:niccolor
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> >>>> From: <nicholas at themediasociety.org>
>> >>>> Date: Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 5:16 PM
>> >>>> Subject: Re: Where does the "lost" money go ? can we find it and get
>> it
>> >>>> back ?
>> >>>> To: Dean Baker <dean.baker1 at verizon.net>
>> >>>> Cc: Noam Chomsky <chomsky at mit.edu>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> happy new year Dean
>> >>>>
>> >>>> who takes it out of circulation ? how ?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> is it destroyed ? made null ?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> how much of the wealth from a bubble gets accumulated by the rich
>> >>>> promoting the bubble ?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> how much gets taken out of circulation ?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> is there a good reference to this ? a website or book ? I am
>> >>>> interested in the formal process and also the reality...
>> >>>>
>> >>>> thanks in advance
>> >>>>
>> >>>> -N
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 1/3/09, Dean Baker <dean.baker1 at verizon.net> wrote:
>> >>>> > Hi Nicholas,
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > It's just like counterfeit money that has been seized by police. It
>> is
>> >>>> > wealth that is taken out of circulation. It means in principle that
>> >>>> > the
>> >>>> > people who did not own stock and did not lose wealth can be better
>> >>>> > off,
>> >>>> > assuming that the demand generated by this stock wealth (people
>> spend
>> >>>> > in
>> >>>> > part based on the wealth they hold in stocks) is replaced by other
>> >>>> sources.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > regards,
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > dean
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Nicholas Roberts wrote:
>> >>>> >> hi Dean
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> this is a really obvious question, but I have yet to find a good
>> >>>> answer;
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> where does the money "lost" in the stock and housing bubbles go ?
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> is it destroyed ? how and where ?
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> is it transferred ? how and where ?
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> is it accumulated ? by whom, how, where  ?
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> can we get it back ?
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> are there any good flow diagrams that explain this in plain terms
>> for
>> >>>> >> regular folks...
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > --
>> >>>> > Dean Baker (baker at cepr.net)
>> >>>> > Co-Director
>> >>>> > Center for Economic and Policy Research 1611 Connecticut Ave., NW
>> >>>> > Washington, DC 20009
>> >>>> > 202-293-5380 (ext 114)
>> >>>> > 202-332-5218 (H)
>> >>>> > www.cepr.net
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>  --
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> Nicholas Roberts
>> >>>> [im] skype:niccolor
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
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>> >>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>> >>>>
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>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
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>> >>>
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>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer
>> >> alternatives.
>> >>
>> >> Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at
>> >> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at
>> >> http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p
>> >>
>> >> Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499; interview
>> at
>> >>
>> http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html
>> >> BEST VIDEO ON P2P:
>> >>
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>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > --
>> > Nicholas Roberts
>> > [im] skype:niccolor
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Nicholas Roberts
>> [im] skype:niccolor
>>
>
>
>
> --
> The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer
> alternatives.
>
> Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at
> http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p
>
> Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499; interview at
> http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html
> BEST VIDEO ON P2P:
> http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=4549818267592301968&hl=en-AU
>
> KEEP UP TO DATE through our Delicious tags at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>
> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
> http://www.shiftn.com/
>
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