[p2p-research] Fwd: Where does the "lost" money go ? can we find it and get it back ?

Mon Jan 5 13:28:42 CET 2009

I do understand that money is created by private loans... but there is
also money made by nation states...

by definiton, the money that is lost in a transaction goes to the
winning party in that transaction... so, who is the winning party ? is
it legitamte that the won that moeny ? if not, lets get it back

my feeling is that the bubbles, booms and busts are used by the super
rich to enrich themselves by their rich deputies by exploiting
everyone else

that the money lost, makes its way to the super rich, is taken out of
public companies and exchanges, and ends up in the shadow and private
banking systems... in tax havens, private accounts etc

the money is transferred, and is accumulated

therefore, it can be found, and redistributed

I wonder whether the equivalent to the stock exchanges in the shadow
banking world are growing, while the public exchanges are shrinking

On 1/5/09, nicholas at themediasociety.org <nicholas at themediasociety.org> wrote:
> I must say, I find the fact that something as fundamental as the money
> system so open to interpretation really very vexing
>
> It seems to me, that it would be very useful for many people, of these
> murky details where exposed to the light of public scrutiny
>
> how can we have democratic control of finance, industry etc if we dont
> have a simple, commonly understood money system ?
>
> thanks to all that replied at length, I will read, watch etc the
> material and come back to the lists soon
>
> On 1/5/09, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Thomas,
>>
>> but your answer then leaves the question: where is the money gone that has
>> been wiped out as value from the stock market and housing prices?
>>
>> since in your account it is not lost, where is it and who has it?
>>
>> I find your answer to be very counter-intuitive and the opposite of what I
>> would assume.
>>
>> If you cannot repay it, it's lost, but if you repay it, it is again
>> available for further loans and as basis for fractional reserve, and
>> therefore, in my view, not destroyed.
>>
>> Michel
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Thomas Greco -- thg
>> <thg at mindspring.com>wrote:
>>
>>>  Money is created when banks make a loan; it is destroyed when the loan
>>> is
>>> repaid.
>>>
>>> The bailout will be inflationary because the debts that are being shifted
>>> from the private sector to the public sector are debts that cannot be
>>> paid
>>> by the original debtors. Government will take the loss, not by using tax
>>> revenues to repay them but by monetizing more government debt. That will
>>> dilute the value of all the money already in circulation.
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> *From:* Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>>> *To:* Nicholas Roberts <nicholas at themediasociety.org>
>>> *Cc:* Thomas Greco -- thg <thg at mindspring.com> ; Peer-To-Peer Research
>>> List <p2presearch at listcultures.org>
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, January 04, 2009 10:55 AM
>>> *Subject:* Re: [p2p-research] Fwd: Where does the "lost" money go ? can
>>> we
>>> find it and get it back ?
>>>
>>> Hi Nicholas,
>>>
>>> Does the money have to 'go' anywhere ...
>>>
>>> Since it is created 'out of nothing' through fractional reserve banking,
>>> why can't it be destroyed just as easily, in the equivalent of a virtual
>>> fire?
>>>
>>> I understand from some remarks, 'the bailout won't create inflation
>>> because
>>> it's merely trying to replace lost money', that this money was
>>> effectively
>>> destroyed.
>>>
>>> Perhaps monetary transformation expert Thomas Greco has some insight to
>>> your question?
>>>
>>> see also http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Money
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 12:05 AM, Nicholas Roberts <
>>> nicholas at themediasociety.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Nicholas Roberts
>>>> [im] skype:niccolor
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>> From: <nicholas at themediasociety.org>
>>>> Date: Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 5:16 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: Where does the "lost" money go ? can we find it and get it
>>>> back ?
>>>> To: Dean Baker <dean.baker1 at verizon.net>
>>>> Cc: Noam Chomsky <chomsky at mit.edu>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> happy new year Dean
>>>>
>>>> who takes it out of circulation ? how ?
>>>>
>>>> is it destroyed ? made null ?
>>>>
>>>> how much of the wealth from a bubble gets accumulated by the rich
>>>> promoting the bubble ?
>>>>
>>>> how much gets taken out of circulation ?
>>>>
>>>> is there a good reference to this ? a website or book ? I am
>>>> interested in the formal process and also the reality...
>>>>
>>>> thanks in advance
>>>>
>>>> -N
>>>>
>>>> On 1/3/09, Dean Baker <dean.baker1 at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>> > Hi Nicholas,
>>>> >
>>>> > It's just like counterfeit money that has been seized by police. It is
>>>> > wealth that is taken out of circulation. It means in principle that
>>>> > the
>>>> > people who did not own stock and did not lose wealth can be better
>>>> > off,
>>>> > assuming that the demand generated by this stock wealth (people spend
>>>> > in
>>>> > part based on the wealth they hold in stocks) is replaced by other
>>>> sources.
>>>> >
>>>> > regards,
>>>> >
>>>> > dean
>>>> >
>>>> > Nicholas Roberts wrote:
>>>> >> hi Dean
>>>> >>
>>>> >> this is a really obvious question, but I have yet to find a good
>>>> answer;
>>>> >>
>>>> >> where does the money "lost" in the stock and housing bubbles go ?
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> is it destroyed ? how and where ?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> is it transferred ? how and where ?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> is it accumulated ? by whom, how, where  ?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> can we get it back ?
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> are there any good flow diagrams that explain this in plain terms for
>>>> >> regular folks...
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> > Dean Baker (baker at cepr.net)
>>>> > Co-Director
>>>> > Center for Economic and Policy Research 1611 Connecticut Ave., NW
>>>> > Washington, DC 20009
>>>> > 202-293-5380 (ext 114)
>>>> > 202-332-5218 (H)
>>>> > www.cepr.net
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  --
>>>> --
>>>> Nicholas Roberts
>>>> [im] skype:niccolor
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer
>> alternatives.
>>
>> Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at
>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at
>> http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p
>>
>> Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499; interview at
>> http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html
>> BEST VIDEO ON P2P:
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>>
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>
>
> --
> --
> Nicholas Roberts
> [im] skype:niccolor
>

-- 
-- 
Nicholas Roberts
[im] skype:niccolor