[p2p-research] member managed web service

[marc fawzi]

Patrick's views are congruent with the ideas I'm working with, so I think I
can pitch in to explain.

His user-as-owner model fixes a lot of things, at least in theory.

One issue it fixes that's hard to fix in any other "p2p" model (without the
introduction of some kind of peer law and peer government) is how to get
producers to be transparent and open source their entire production process,
not just the thing they're producing.

As far as 'control' goes, I personally think in terms of achieving
'autonomy' through increased interdependence, which is what user-as-owner
model does too by making production processes dependent on everyone's
support. The way I'm tackling the autonomy issue, however, given that the
model I'm working with is for the far future, is by arguing that 'Internet
infrastructure' as an industry should evolve to meet the conditions for
sustainable abundance, which it does not at this time.

The network-centric model puts control in the hands of those who have the
most capital to afford data centers, backbones, local access, peering hubs,
under sea cables, etc.  This creates dependence on a few players. The way I
understand it, is that Patrick's model would require ownership of the
infrastructure by the public, which can happen, of course, if enough people
demonstrate in the street demanding it.

In the model I'm working with, which does not change the ownership model in
itself but has its limitations in terms of what industries it applies to
(i.e. those that meet the sustainable abundance conditions [see P2P Energy
Economy] <http://p2pfoundation.net/P2P_Energy_Economy>) in order for the
Internet infrastructure as an industry to meet the conditions for
sustainable abundance we must move from the network centric model which is
extremely capital intensive to the P2P Internet model which replicates the
Internet over mesh architecture (which I don't believe anyone has
demonstrated on wide-scale basis [search: 802.11s and World Wide Mesh)

So, yeah, we really need to look beneath the surface and face the issue of
control in society.


On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 4:02 PM, Patrick Anderson <agnucius at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Matt Cooperrider
> <mattcooperrider at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi Patrick,
> >
> > I think I follow your argument.  What about when we are dealing with a
> > commons (as many wikis can be understood)?  There is no owner, and no
> sale
> > of goods, as far as I can see.  How would you interpret that situation
> > within your theory?
>
> No wiki can exist without the Physical Sources (Material Means of
> Production) required to 'host' it.
>
> Just as with every other kind of 'thing', software requires Space,
> Time, Mass and Energy.  That may sound ominous, or somehow too strange
> to consider, but please think it through*.
>
> So the person(s) in control of hardware end up being the owner(s) of
> any wiki instance.
>
> For simplicity I usually say that controlling group must be the
> literal property owner of the computer, keyboard, monitor, buildings,
> etc. needed to keep that wiki operating, but it is also true that
> those controllers may be renting or leasing those Physical Sources
> from other owners.
>
> But either way, the problem we strangely resist confronting directly
> is that control finally rests in property ownership of Physical
> Sources required to 'host' any virtual thing (such as software,
> movies, mechanical designs, DNA, medicine formulas, etc.).  [[This is,
> of course, assuming we are using virtual things that are either Public
> Domain (unlocked), or - even better - under the GNU GPL (locked
> open)]]
>
>
> As for "the sale of goods", there is something to be said about
> advertising being a fee that the user/consumer pays, but I don't know
> how to say it.
>
> (*) See these papers for further elaboration and hopefully more clarity:
> http://Blog.P2PFoundation.net/one-loaf-per-child/2007/06/14
> http://SourceFreedom.BlogSpot.com
> http://Oekonux.org/list-en/archive/msg04253.html
>
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>
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