[p2p-research] Workshop on Media Ecologies: Q&A: Sam Rose

Wed Aug 26 16:50:38 CEST 2009

Hey Nathan

On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 6:57 PM, Nathan Cravens<knuggy at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Sorry to disappoint. For me it is just a matter of priorities. I am
>> very committed to food and energy production, localized food
>> processing, and fabrication that helps those areas Plus some people
>> actually would rather do repetitive tasks. Ask anyone who has a hobby
>> like knitting, loom weaving, people who spend spare time proofreading
>> texts for free, staring picture on a website identifying craters on
>> Mars for free, etc etc. Crazy as it may seem to you and me, these
>> people do want to do this, that go out of their way to choose to do
>> these repetitive activities.
>
> Yes, and so be it, but the problem is they are forced into rote tasks to
> 'earn' a living. I'm for robotics networks that can perform these already
> obsolete tasks to the point it overwhelms the classical economy to the point
> it is obvious labor as market value is obsolete.

Actually, ironically the people who do the above mentioned activities
as "hobbies" are often people who do not need to do them at all for a
living. I know people who are well payed PhD students, that do
proofreading because they enjoy doing it. My wife enjoys weaving,
knitting, etc and she's not suffering in a sweatshop :-)

However, I still agree with your point that there are many rote tasks
that millions of people are doing world wide to 'earn' a living. And,
I am with you on the drive to create robotics that can eliminate some
of these. Even more, I am interested in robotics that can give them
the infrastructure they need to become self sufficient, which is
related to what you are talking about. The suffering  people you are
talking about actually require a full ecology of systems, which
includes robots that can eliminate rote labor, but also includes
localized food systems, sustainable shelter systems, waste-equals-food
ecologies for the byproducts of their production, and money systems
that are tied to natural forces, such as energy, for value.

::Drift:: One of the reasons people have to struggle so much to earn a
living, and are forced into taking on really taxing rote manual labor
jobs can be traced back the way that the flow of money systems are
controlled. Central banks and governments artificially control money
flows via fixing compound interest rates. So, when financial systems
take a dive (usually after a false expansion that people start to
realize cannot be sustained, which leads to the collapse), lending
institutions dam up the flow of money, blocking people from accessing
it, which has a domino effect, and those with the least amount of
money are forced to struggle even harder to procure the basic amount
of money for survival. I propose that we both give people the means of
production, to eliminate the need for money, plus we all start using
new money systems that are tied to natural forces. People have been
calling for this for years. This makes money *self-regulating*. We
could prove it with experiments with digital money online. (see this
article http://www.energybulletin.net/49740 ).
http://seekingalpha.com/article/129500-banking-on-energy-rather-than-currency-or-gold
 Time banks are an example. I don't think that currency should *only*
be based on petro, but any solar-derived energy, or even other energy.
/::Drift::

Plus, as Nathan continually advocates, it is extremely important in my
opinion to diminish the need for money at all. Especially for basic
survival needs. We already have enough space, and stored/potentially
energy to meet basic survival needs for every person on this planet in
totally self-sustaining ways. We're just currently misusing the
resources, and I think that is obvious to many people.

>
> Thanks Sam for clarifying the workshop outline. I'll pitch this link as the
> workshop is discussed:
> http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0ATsfIaJ1pQxZGcyanpkZnRfMjc1aGN2YzdnZ2Q&hl=en
>
> Hi Alex,
>
> Thanks for jumping into the conversation. ;) I'm delighted to hear you think
> the paper folding session would be a worthwhile demonstration of what a
> collaborative robotics network will be like.
>
> Many of these things are being done, such as remote piloting of planes or
> drones fully automated... An upcoming Hollywood film is taking this idea
> further with the concept of remotely controlled people... this same theme is
> found in 'Running Man' ... and to some extend in the novel, 'Frankenstien'.
> Hey Godwin! ;)
>
>
> Nathan
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 5:01 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> There's actually 2 parts to the conference:
>>
>> 1 part is people talking about stuff like what Alex is suggesting,
>> plus some of the standard ways of implementing that via technology
>>
>> 2nd part is people using info tech to collaborate specifically around
>> open source tech and fab lab/open source design. 2nd part is where a
>> demo like what Nathan is talking about would fit in
>>
>> For my part, I wanted to do a demonstration using some of the software
>> releases that people at the conference have developed, and the
>> software that Paul and myself are developing, to show practical uses
>> for letting monolithic web applications talk to each other in useful
>> ways. This is why I was originally asking what software people out
>> there have developed, because I want to develop some
>> wrapper/extensions for your different software/platforms and use those
>> in a demonstration. And, Paul Hartzog would present a more
>> theory-based overview of the approach we are taking (if this meeting
>> will contain presentations at all, which was the other question I had)
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Alex Rollin<alex.rollin at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I think the demonstration is a good idea.  Robots are the present and
>> > future of production in many ways.  This conference is not so much
>> > about robots, but I find that showing people videos of the candyfab
>> > and then the more usable tools is  a great way to make an impact when
>> > 'recruiting' to the OS bandwagon cheer section.
>> >
>> > This conference seems to be leaning towards facilitating cooperation
>> > and collaboration.  I will be working on something more along the
>> > lines of my experience working with 100s of client organizations and
>> > how they have succeeded in developing cultures of cooperation when
>> > collaborating on complex projects over distances.
>> >
>> > A
>> >
>> > On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 11:25 PM, Nathan Cravens<knuggy at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>> > The goal is to do anything remotely!
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> >>> Our goal here is to first help people address the basic needs for
>> >>> energy, food, shelter, and general physiological and psychological
>> >>> survival using open source software and technology. Retorifitting
>> >>> existing urban infrastructure, putting vacant land and buildings to
>> >>> use, localizing food production, that sort of thing. I frankly way too
>> >>> busy with that work to rise the challenge of the remote paper folding
>> >>> robot.
>> >>
>> >> Yes, I'm with you there Sam, but an elderly population like Japan in
>> >> the
>> >> coming decades, assuming workers are not imported, these things must be
>> >> done
>> >> remotely, then automated.
>> >> Folding paper is just one example...
>> >>
>> >> Perhaps people in the hackerspace or fab lab community would present
>> >> something like this since they have the ability to pool more resources.
>> >>
>> >> I'm rather disappointed that no one thus far finds such a demonstration
>> >> all
>> >> that important. We need robotics to do tasks people would rather not do
>> >> to
>> >> keep essential functions so it is practical to apply peer production
>> >> universally, where it is possible to manage all affairs asynchronously.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> p2presearch mailing list
>> >> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>> >> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Alex
>> > I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only make them think.- Socrates
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Sam Rose
>> Social Synergy
>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>> skype: samuelrose
>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>> http://socialsynergyweb.com
>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
>> http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>> http://localfoodsystems.org
>> http://notanemployee.net
>> http://communitywiki.org
>>
>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>
>

-- 
-- 
Sam Rose
Social Synergy
Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
skype: samuelrose
email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
http://socialsynergyweb.com
http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
http://socialmediaclassroom.com
http://localfoodsystems.org
http://notanemployee.net
http://communitywiki.org

"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
ambition." - Carl Sagan