[p2p-research] Universities Irrelevant by 2020?
Michel Bauwens
michelsub2004 at gmail.com
Fri Apr 24 16:24:35 CEST 2009
just a little extra note to Andreas argument about credentialing and its
important,
while my generation was trying to get rid of uniforms and rituals, here at
my university, students of the college are complaining that they are not
getting their graduation hat, only the costume, so it doesn't look real
enough; the one thing worse if nobody of the royal family coming to hand
out the diploma in person, so that you can make a picture of it,
Michel
On 4/24/09, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Andreas:
>
> Historically, the University of Wales chose to do what, say, the University
> of Texas system did not. They validate centrally and educate on distributed
> campuses. Whereas at class at UT Austin doesn't necessarily count toward a
> degree at UT El Paso and vice versa. So, when they realized they had this
> capability (and I have visited and met with them and they document it fairly
> rigorously...see http://www.wales.ac.uk/defaultpage.asp?page=e7062)
>
> As a trainor, I am interested in getting as much validation for my work as
> possible. So I use facilities like the Institute of Leadership and
> Management validations, trade association validations, and am looking at
> using University of Wales validations. I teach (or people train themselves
> in communities of practice), and students get a bucket of credentials.
>
> If I were a university, I'd hate me because I disaggregate their offerings
> and cherry-pick p2p relations with individual faculty, departments, classes
> etc. This was how p2p started to erode business (e.g. Sun Microsystems).
> Institutions require command and control of aggregated product sets. P2P
> melts that aggregation by allowing customization under the control of the
> peer.
>
> I saw IBM start to melt when they moved into open systems. They have
> actually handled the transformation far better than most. But I remember
> product meetings inside IBM where people said we were destroying the firm by
> moving away from Blue-only frameworks. The same will be heard in
> universities. But the moral imperative placed on faculty's shoulders is
> that they must recognize they are part of a corporate scheme, or they most
> open up.
>
> The argument of inability to judge quality at other institutions only goes
> so far in the instrumental education environment you portray. Then they
> will claim their programs have special linked components. But does anyone
> really believe that getting an MBA class in accounting at Dartmouth is
> systematically different than getting one at Penn State? No. The intent is
> to create elite associations. Faculty, moral faculty, will only enable that
> so far once e-learning pervades and the place a student lives is less
> important. For now, all sorts of institutional mechanics like alumni
> relations block that ethical transformation. Even now very few faculty
> associate with their institution--they associate with their field. The
> seeds of collapse are there.
>
> Ryan Lanham
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 4:44 AM, Wittel, Andreas <
> andreas.wittel at ntu.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> Ryan says: Under what circumstances could we envision systematic collapse
>> of universities on a large scale? And if we cannot imagine them not
>> existing, what is it about them that gives them such heroic sustainability?
>>
>> Good question Ryan. I think we need to separate issue of education from
>> the purchase of a degree programme. I'm looking at this with a fairly cold
>> eye. this is my experience as lectuer in a BA Media degree programme. The
>> vast majority all students don't give a damn about education anymore. They
>> are only interested in the marks of their asessments, and in improving these
>> marks. They only care about the final degree and the results they get.
>>
>> The instrumentality of knowledge delivery started by unis has sure spread
>> to students. Now everybody is instrumental about it.
>>
>> To put it provocatively: there is no other institution around that can
>> sell degrees. For unis to disapprear the degree culture would have to
>> disappear first. I can't see that happening. Its not a heroic
>> sustainability, but a pretty strong one.
>>
>> Andreas
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: p2presearch-bounces at listcultures.org on behalf of Ryan Lanham
>> Sent: Fri 24/04/2009 02:52
>> To: marc fawzi
>> Cc: Stephen Downes; George Siemens; Peer-To-Peer Research List
>> Subject: Re: [p2p-research] Universities Irrelevant by 2020?
>>
>>
>> I doubt my own expertise, categorically. But lets spin the tables. Under
>> what circumstances could we envision systematic collapse of universities on
>> a large scale? And if we cannot imagine them not existing, what is it about
>> them that gives them such heroic sustainability?
>>
>> In short, what model of higher education is sustainable?
>>
>> I imagine a market model failure is the only thing that could endanger the
>> system. That means the economics of earning university credentials must be
>> undermined and research budgets would need to have a sustained period of
>> decline.
>>
>> If Hakim Bey's idea of universities as research monasteries was to ensue,
>> then the teaching side would need to fail financially. What is certainly
>> true is that the cost of college has exceeded the inflation rate in growth
>> for a number of years.
>>
>>
>> http://money.cnn.com/2008/08/20/pf/college/college_price.moneymag/index.htm
>>
>> That seems unsustainable, obviously.
>>
>> My scenario would be that large numbers of the middle classes who entered
>> the academy in the 1950s and especially the 1960s might be priced out. That
>> could happen during this financial downturn. Student debt growth is
>> enormous.
>>
>> http://www.nelliemae.com/library/research_10.html
>>
>> Under such scenarios, it would be hard to show increases in research
>> funding which has been also growing steadily in recent years (in the US).
>> Politically, universities would be perceived as elites and no amount of
>> athletic boosting would likely turn that tide.
>>
>> State budgets in the US will be crushed for at least five years--possibly
>> a decade or even two. That will pressure endowments as will market
>> investment losses and low bond rates.
>>
>> If universities reach a point were they are not economic engines for
>> localities...based on trims along the edges, they will lose that element of
>> support as well. That would be the last straw I'd think, because it is a
>> great deal to have a university concentrating cash in your town.
>>
>> So, you might ask can universities cut costs, keep relevant research,
>> finesse state funding, fend off e-learning and open validation threats and
>> still deliver a product. I sort of doubt it. I'd guess it isn't
>> sustainable.
>>
>> First faculties will grow top-heavy as the big grant earners hang on for
>> long careers and few replacement slots can be freed up. Next, market
>> innovations will clip market share both in research and degree earnings. No
>> amount of certificates and non-degree programs will offset this in my
>> opinion. Life long learning doesn't fit the university model all that well.
>>
>> Part of market innovations will be p2p education and research facilities.
>> It is already occurring albeit not at a 2020 threat rate.
>>
>> Still, it is easier to envision higher ed collapse than healthcare
>> collapse, and no few people are predicting the latter. The trends are
>> similar and often interrelated.
>>
>> Ryan Lanham
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 8:19 PM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Stanford and Harvard probably have over $100B in combined assets
>> (Ryan, you're the expert here) so for schools like that I just don't
>> understand what "disappear" means.
>>
>> Stanford (like MIT) is a proponent of open education and they've
>> started experimenting with free education led by tenured professors (on the
>> Palo Alto campus not just online)
>>
>> I certainly don't see MIT, Harvard and Stanford going anywhere.
>> They will evolve for sure but they have amassed so much wealth and resources
>> (or resource networks) that they're unlikely to just dissolve. It may happen
>> more like the transition from the British Empire to what is now "Great
>> Britain." In other words, they will still hold a lot of power just from a
>> different position.
>>
>> My 2 cents.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 1:04 PM, Ryan Lanham <
>> rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I believe the boundaries of the university are fracturing
>> as are most institutions confronted with p2p. I agree with Andy that the
>> more structural an institution is, the harder and longer it is to get
>> transformation. Universities are pretty darn medieval in many respects from
>> my experiences at 5 of them as student, employee and sometimes teacher. And
>> those sorts of entities also lack a certain resiliance. They cannot change
>> well when confronted with crisis.
>>
>> If there is a persistent financial downturn, if the rates
>> of e-learning uptake continue, then the boundaries of universities as
>> concepts will continue to erode--perhaps sharply. "Irrelevant" is a heat
>> word. It is meant to spur just what we are doing--trying to gauge a
>> spectrum of data to come to some revised interim conclusions.
>>
>> Trends are not saturation, but relevance does entail
>> maintaining a certain dominance. Will universities be the dominant venue of
>> higher education in 11 years is answered as yes, no or not a good question.
>> Wiley seems to say no. I must admit 11 years seems a bold guess--but I
>> can't disagree with the trend. It would be easy to say it is not a good
>> question. I really wonder more what will surplant their relevance however
>> much is lost. It is hard to imagine their relevance will increase (at least
>> for me.)
>>
>> Budgets for the next few years in places like California
>> and Florida are going to be horrific. Endowment losses at some of the big
>> privates have been considerable and cuts have been in the press. I'm not
>> sure conventional education and degrees will hold their staying power as
>> means to acquire increased economic and social status. The erosion will
>> take time. But as a new owner of a Kindle, I look at my bookcases as
>> something loved but as obsolete as a record turntable. It is easy for me to
>> love books and to hope they continue, but frankly, I can't see the trend
>> changing course, so the discussion is about timing. I feel the same about
>> university budgets, power, presence and relevance. The trends suggest and
>> continued move down.
>>
>>
>> Ryan Lanham
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 10:37 PM, Michel Bauwens <
>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> The car industry is different, dependent as it is
>> on cheap oil, but outside of the US it is in difficulty, but not yet dying,
>> the middle class dream of owning a car is alive and well in Asia
>>
>> but an institutional setting for learning, where
>> people congregate and people specialize in learning, transmitting knowledge,
>> augmented or not by p2p learning, that's a different matter for me
>>
>> I follow downes and siemens, and never heard them
>> say universities would disappear in 11 years, rather, I see them patiently
>> working on constructing alternatives
>>
>> It would be of interest to have their view on the
>> future of universities as well as a timescale, so I've cc'ed them just in
>> case,
>>
>> Libraries by the way, are also experiencing a
>> revival, even in the U.S.; again, their function will change and they will
>> adapt, but I see few signs of their disappearance, they still have very
>> important social roles to play; remember that only 1 billion or so people
>> are wired for the moment,
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 9:22 AM, Ryan Lanham <
>> rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Well, Michel, I think you know or know of
>> George Siemens. He and Stephen Downes and others aren't saying things all
>> that far from what this guy Wiley is saying. If you had asked me in 1990
>> whether GM could be on the verge of bankruptcy and irrelevance, I'd have
>> said you were delusional. I'm sure the horse shoe-ers on Main St. in Palo
>> Alto in 1905 thought they had work for life.
>>
>> Acceleration is real. In labs now they are
>> move terabytes a second through wireless. IBM has said Moore's law can go
>> on for at least 2 more decades....extrapolating (looking at what Microsoft
>> is planning for in their labs) you are talking about enormously fast
>> machines with incredible data absorbing capabilities...no use in building
>> them if they can't be built at prices people can afford.
>>
>> Something's got to give? Who needs a
>> library? Who needs a lecture hall? Who needs a dorm? It might all become
>> an exercise in "those were the days" type sentimentalism for the past. Are
>> universities become Disneyland?
>>
>> Ryan
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 9:14 PM, Michel
>> Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> In 11 years? Ryan, that is
>> delusional ...
>>
>> It takes generations for this type
>> of change to occur
>>
>> we're barely starting to talk about
>> peer and self accreditation, there are no sedimented practices yet
>>
>> of course, more and more people,
>> like us, will learn more and more outside channels, finding universities
>> irrelevant for learning (which is why I'm hesitating so much to do a phd,
>> the only benefit being social recognition, not learning per se), but for the
>> mass of the population, and the mainstream institutional world, there will
>> be a long mutual adaptation, until new trust forms are sufficiently
>> developed for general acceptance of learning.
>>
>> one should never confuse one's own
>> situation, with the general reality; things will change, and sometimes
>> non-linearly, but I think it's a very safe bet to say universities will be
>> there in 2020; not only that, seeing from Asia, there growing like hell,
>> (just as newspapers by the way, there's no crisis here, on the contrary)
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 7:16 AM,
>> Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I'm not the only lunatic....
>>
>> This from Kurzweil's group...
>>
>>
>> *************************
>> Universities will be 'irrelevant'
>> by 2020
>> Deseret News April 20, 2009
>> *************************
>> Universities will be irrelevant by
>> 2020 in a world where students
>> listen to free online lectures on
>> iPods, course materials are shared
>> between universities, science labs
>> are virtual, and digital textbooks
>> are free, says Brigham Young
>> University professor of psychology
>> and instructional technology David
>> Wiley....
>>
>> http://www.kurzweilai.net/email/newsRedirect.html?newsID=10454&m=44482
>>
>>
>> Ryan Lanham
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>> Marc Fawzi
>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>>
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>>
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