[p2p-research] Was Re: P2P Medicine -- Making Your Smart Phone / Now P2P and Futurism

Fri Apr 24 05:03:17 CEST 2009

I'm just going to comment on the aspect of Ryan's response that interests me
the most:

Visioning is NOT 'necessarily ideological' unless you want to sell the
vision, i.e. you have to believe that it's there (and just requires XYZ)
already in order for others to believe in it and fund it etc.

But the extent to which one believes their own imagination is what I'm
concerned about... sometimes it crosses the border between vision and
delusion, where the latter is defined as believing in your own vision beyond
just for show (beyond just to sell the vision)

Marc

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 7:19 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 9:10 AM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hi Michel, Marc,
>>
>> I'd see visioning as teleological.  Engineering requires
>> visioning...visioning is teleological.  At some juncture what we implement
>> is what we imagine as feasible and good--a purpose.  Yes, accidents and
>> black swans are major factors, but you've got to plan for some end---and
>> having a vision is necessarily ideological.
>
>
> agreed
>
>
>>
>>
>> But planning isn't done well by spontaneous organizations...they react.
>> P2P either is a worldview, or it is a description of certain social
>> phenomena.  If it is a description, it is planning neutral.  If it is a
>> worldview, its vision is to reach normative states of high trust and
>> sharing.  It doesn't try to reach some defined end.
>
>
> would you consider the p2p-f a spontaneous organization? In my case, I have
> a loose vision of what I want to see happen next, and certainly, I/we are
> able to realize some of it, even though, most of it is, in the context of a
> totally volunteer organization, out of my control, but nudging constantly in
> a certain direction is not without effect, and a certain intuitive
> understanding of the logic of social dynamics ('what is likely to happen
> next'), can help
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> So, isn't p2p divergent from a planning culture?  Isn't it inconsistent
>> with progressive theories?  It might be a mode of interacting, but not a
>> philosophy that reaches for a purpose other than ideas surrounding its mode
>> of interaction.
>
>
> well, I think we need to distinguish a broad shift towards an informal p2p
> ethos and attending practices, full blown peer
> produciton/governance/property by communities aware of what they're doing,
> the p2p-f community, and my own understanding of p2p theory, these are 4
> different things
>
> I don't think p2p is inconsistent with planning, but it is with top down
> centralized planning, but that the glocal coordination in view of the
> realization of value can have a planning component, I don't discount at all;
> I actually suspect that we may see a revival of planning at some point
>
>
>>
>>
>> Maybe you have to combine pragmatism with p2p, or some utopian model--like
>> a mutualist or socialist utopian model.  Does p2p stand by itself as a
>> worldview, or does it complement existing worldviews?
>
>
> I think, in my p2p theory version of it, it aims to stand on its own, but
> it is very specifically oriented to thinking about understand p2p trends,
> and achieving a p2p society; it does not claim to explain all of reality,
> nor to substitute for all social movements; therefore, it seeks
> complementary theories, and alliances with complimentary movements; p2p, as
> ideology most appropriate to the value system of contemporary knowledge
> workers, needs to find connection with workers and farmers for example
>
>>
>>
>> (All above is at least half-baked...maybe wholly so.)
>>
>> Ryan Lanham
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 8:49 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Marc, Ryan,
>>>
>>> beautifully said Marc,
>>>
>>> of course, vision, and thinking about the future, even utopia, are all
>>> legitimate
>>>
>>> my problem with superlative transhumanism is its lack of any social
>>> awareness, its technological determinism, and scientific reductionism
>>>
>>> of course, today, most h+ is no longer right-libertarian, but as the WTA
>>> is, rather social-democratic in approach, so by all means, I'm in favour of
>>> dialogue around areas of common concern
>>>
>>> but the relentless imagining that what we wish for is already there, or
>>> just around the corner, I find cumbersome; as is the focus on technological
>>> promise above everything else
>>>
>>> what I try to do, perhaps imperfectly is to distinguish clearly between
>>> facts (they must  be correct, not imagined), moral interpretation (what
>>> aspect do we like in these facts) and a praxis (how can we strengthen what
>>> we like). To the degree that futurism and visioning inspires such action,
>>> and does not distort the facts, I see no problem at all.
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 8:37 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think Michel is referring to the ideology in a vacuum, i.e. in the
>>>> absence of anything real.
>>>>
>>>> You can have a vision in the absence of something real to substantiate
>>>> it and that is called futuring or visioning and it's part of human nature.
>>>>
>>>> But you cannot have an ideology in the absence of something real to
>>>> substantiate it.
>>>>
>>>> So the issue, IMO, is vision vs ideology.
>>>>
>>>> Ideology that is there before there is any supporting reality is
>>>> delusion.
>>>>
>>>> Vision is different, as it foreshadows what is to come and does not
>>>> pretend that it is already here.
>>>>
>>>> Marc
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 12:09 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 11:21 PM, Michel Bauwens <
>>>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Sam,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> as you perhaps know, I studied for a number of years the implications
>>>>>> of the  transhuman promises, when making TechnoCalyps,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> my problems are:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) people like kurzweil and other superlatives go seemlessly, and
>>>>>> unwarrantedly, from actual research, to the promise of the research, to
>>>>>> imagining that everything is done already
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wonder if the follow-on from your position, Michel, is that
>>>>> evangelism and futurism are inconsistent with P2P systems, which are more
>>>>> focused on deployment and solutions?
>>>>>
>>>>> I find the distinction of p2p to be its moral tones.  Its pervasive
>>>>> political economic view is trust and responsibility--much more than any
>>>>> brand of socialism or libertarianism, for example, I am aware of.
>>>>>
>>>>> It may be those ethical traits which remove it from evangelism and,
>>>>> especially, futurism.  Futurism must be speculative, rhetorical and
>>>>> visioning.  Perhaps the risks associated with those veins makes futurism
>>>>> inconsistent with p2p's moral/ethical tone.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ryan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Marc Fawzi
>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>
>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>>
>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>>
>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>
> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>
> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>
> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
> http://www.shiftn.com/
>

-- 

Marc Fawzi
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch_listcultures.org/attachments/20090423/9bf25a23/attachment-0001.html>