[p2p-research] Was Re: P2P Medicine -- Making Your Smart Phone / Now P2P and Futurism

Fri Apr 24 04:19:50 CEST 2009

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 9:10 AM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Michel, Marc,
>
> I'd see visioning as teleological.  Engineering requires
> visioning...visioning is teleological.  At some juncture what we implement
> is what we imagine as feasible and good--a purpose.  Yes, accidents and
> black swans are major factors, but you've got to plan for some end---and
> having a vision is necessarily ideological.

agreed

>
>
> But planning isn't done well by spontaneous organizations...they react.
> P2P either is a worldview, or it is a description of certain social
> phenomena.  If it is a description, it is planning neutral.  If it is a
> worldview, its vision is to reach normative states of high trust and
> sharing.  It doesn't try to reach some defined end.

would you consider the p2p-f a spontaneous organization? In my case, I have
a loose vision of what I want to see happen next, and certainly, I/we are
able to realize some of it, even though, most of it is, in the context of a
totally volunteer organization, out of my control, but nudging constantly in
a certain direction is not without effect, and a certain intuitive
understanding of the logic of social dynamics ('what is likely to happen
next'), can help

>
>
> So, isn't p2p divergent from a planning culture?  Isn't it inconsistent
> with progressive theories?  It might be a mode of interacting, but not a
> philosophy that reaches for a purpose other than ideas surrounding its mode
> of interaction.

well, I think we need to distinguish a broad shift towards an informal p2p
ethos and attending practices, full blown peer
produciton/governance/property by communities aware of what they're doing,
the p2p-f community, and my own understanding of p2p theory, these are 4
different things

I don't think p2p is inconsistent with planning, but it is with top down
centralized planning, but that the glocal coordination in view of the
realization of value can have a planning component, I don't discount at all;
I actually suspect that we may see a revival of planning at some point

>
>
> Maybe you have to combine pragmatism with p2p, or some utopian model--like
> a mutualist or socialist utopian model.  Does p2p stand by itself as a
> worldview, or does it complement existing worldviews?

I think, in my p2p theory version of it, it aims to stand on its own, but it
is very specifically oriented to thinking about understand p2p trends, and
achieving a p2p society; it does not claim to explain all of reality, nor to
substitute for all social movements; therefore, it seeks complementary
theories, and alliances with complimentary movements; p2p, as ideology most
appropriate to the value system of contemporary knowledge workers, needs to
find connection with workers and farmers for example

>
>
> (All above is at least half-baked...maybe wholly so.)
>
> Ryan Lanham
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 8:49 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hi Marc, Ryan,
>>
>> beautifully said Marc,
>>
>> of course, vision, and thinking about the future, even utopia, are all
>> legitimate
>>
>> my problem with superlative transhumanism is its lack of any social
>> awareness, its technological determinism, and scientific reductionism
>>
>> of course, today, most h+ is no longer right-libertarian, but as the WTA
>> is, rather social-democratic in approach, so by all means, I'm in favour of
>> dialogue around areas of common concern
>>
>> but the relentless imagining that what we wish for is already there, or
>> just around the corner, I find cumbersome; as is the focus on technological
>> promise above everything else
>>
>> what I try to do, perhaps imperfectly is to distinguish clearly between
>> facts (they must  be correct, not imagined), moral interpretation (what
>> aspect do we like in these facts) and a praxis (how can we strengthen what
>> we like). To the degree that futurism and visioning inspires such action,
>> and does not distort the facts, I see no problem at all.
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 8:37 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I think Michel is referring to the ideology in a vacuum, i.e. in the
>>> absence of anything real.
>>>
>>> You can have a vision in the absence of something real to substantiate it
>>> and that is called futuring or visioning and it's part of human nature.
>>>
>>> But you cannot have an ideology in the absence of something real to
>>> substantiate it.
>>>
>>> So the issue, IMO, is vision vs ideology.
>>>
>>> Ideology that is there before there is any supporting reality is
>>> delusion.
>>>
>>> Vision is different, as it foreshadows what is to come and does not
>>> pretend that it is already here.
>>>
>>> Marc
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 12:09 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 11:21 PM, Michel Bauwens <
>>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Sam,
>>>>>
>>>>> as you perhaps know, I studied for a number of years the implications
>>>>> of the  transhuman promises, when making TechnoCalyps,
>>>>>
>>>>> my problems are:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) people like kurzweil and other superlatives go seemlessly, and
>>>>> unwarrantedly, from actual research, to the promise of the research, to
>>>>> imagining that everything is done already
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder if the follow-on from your position, Michel, is that
>>>> evangelism and futurism are inconsistent with P2P systems, which are more
>>>> focused on deployment and solutions?
>>>>
>>>> I find the distinction of p2p to be its moral tones.  Its pervasive
>>>> political economic view is trust and responsibility--much more than any
>>>> brand of socialism or libertarianism, for example, I am aware of.
>>>>
>>>> It may be those ethical traits which remove it from evangelism and,
>>>> especially, futurism.  Futurism must be speculative, rhetorical and
>>>> visioning.  Perhaps the risks associated with those veins makes futurism
>>>> inconsistent with p2p's moral/ethical tone.
>>>>
>>>> Ryan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Marc Fawzi
>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>
>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>
>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>
>
>

-- 
Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
http://p2pfoundation.ning.com

Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens

The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
http://www.shiftn.com/
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