[p2p-research] Universities Irrelevant by 2020?

Fri Apr 24 04:18:50 CEST 2009

Again, to work on something assumes it has value and enduring purpose. We
work to ends.  If yone doesn't maintain a model of social evolution embedded
in p2p, then it requires the addition of pragmatism or some other link to
enable a theory of purpose.

Thinking something is automatic may just be the strong expression of a hope
toward a purpose--p2p education MUST be advanced because something must fill
this emerging gap!

Scare resources need to be allocated.  Building p2p systems only makes sense
if they represent an end we are attempting to reach...utopian, pragmatic,
socialist, mutualist, or other.  Or p2p is an end in itself--which is my
tentative conclusion.  P2P is an political economic theory that is
teleological.  The purpose is an ideal of productive sharing and trust.

Ryan Lanham

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 8:55 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:

> will informal p2p education one day trump university degrees, and will
> physical places of learning become more adjuncts to that process, it is
> possible, even likely, and for people like us, already very real,
>
> how fast it will be, the question of timing, that is indeed a question,
>
> I prefer to work on changing education and promoting p2p modes of learning,
> than predict any automaticity in that change,
>
> Michel
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 3:04 AM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I believe the boundaries of the university are fracturing as are most
>> institutions confronted with p2p.  I agree with Andy that the more
>> structural an institution is, the harder and longer it is to get
>> transformation.  Universities are pretty darn medieval in many respects from
>> my experiences at 5 of them as student, employee and sometimes teacher.  And
>> those sorts of entities also lack a certain resiliance.  They cannot change
>> well when confronted with crisis.
>>
>> If there is a persistent financial downturn, if the rates of e-learning
>> uptake continue, then the boundaries of universities as concepts will
>> continue to erode--perhaps sharply.  "Irrelevant" is a heat word.  It is
>> meant to spur just what we are doing--trying to gauge a spectrum of data to
>> come to some revised interim conclusions.
>>
>> Trends are not saturation, but relevance does entail maintaining a certain
>> dominance.  Will universities be the dominant venue of higher education in
>> 11 years is answered as yes, no or not a good question.  Wiley seems to say
>> no.  I must admit 11 years seems a bold guess--but I can't disagree with the
>> trend.  It would be easy to say it is not a good question.  I really wonder
>> more what will surplant their relevance however much is lost.  It is hard to
>> imagine their relevance will increase (at least for me.)
>>
>> Budgets for the next few years in places like California and Florida are
>> going to be horrific.  Endowment losses at some of the big privates have
>> been considerable and cuts have been in the press.  I'm not sure
>> conventional education and degrees will hold their staying power as means to
>> acquire increased economic and social status.  The erosion will take time.
>> But as a new owner of a Kindle, I look at my bookcases as something loved
>> but as obsolete as a record turntable.  It is easy for me to love books and
>> to hope they continue, but frankly, I can't see the trend changing course,
>> so the discussion is about timing.  I feel the same about university
>> budgets, power, presence and relevance.  The trends suggest and continued
>> move down.
>>
>> Ryan Lanham
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 10:37 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> The car industry is different, dependent as it is on cheap oil, but
>>> outside of the US it is in difficulty, but not yet dying, the middle class
>>> dream of owning a car is alive and well in Asia
>>>
>>> but an institutional setting for learning, where people congregate and
>>> people specialize in learning, transmitting knowledge, augmented or not by
>>> p2p learning, that's a different matter for me
>>>
>>> I follow downes and siemens, and never heard them say universities would
>>> disappear in 11 years, rather, I see them patiently working on constructing
>>> alternatives
>>>
>>> It would be of interest to have their view on the future of universities
>>> as well as a timescale, so I've cc'ed them just in case,
>>>
>>> Libraries by the way, are also experiencing a revival, even in the U.S.;
>>> again, their function will change and they will adapt, but I see few signs
>>> of their disappearance, they still have very important social roles to play;
>>> remember that only 1 billion or so people are wired for the moment,
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 9:22 AM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well, Michel, I think you know or know of George Siemens.  He and
>>>> Stephen Downes and others aren't saying things all that far from what this
>>>> guy Wiley is saying.  If you had asked me in 1990 whether GM could be on the
>>>> verge of bankruptcy and irrelevance, I'd have said you were delusional.  I'm
>>>> sure the horse shoe-ers on Main St. in Palo Alto in 1905 thought they had
>>>> work for life.
>>>>
>>>> Acceleration is real.  In labs now they are move terabytes a second
>>>> through wireless.  IBM has said Moore's law can go on for at least 2 more
>>>> decades....extrapolating (looking at what Microsoft is planning for in their
>>>> labs) you are talking about enormously fast machines with incredible data
>>>> absorbing capabilities...no use in building them if they can't be built at
>>>> prices people can afford.
>>>>
>>>> Something's got to give?  Who needs a library?  Who needs a lecture
>>>> hall?  Who needs a dorm? It might all become an exercise in "those were the
>>>> days" type sentimentalism for the past.  Are universities become Disneyland?
>>>>
>>>> Ryan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 9:14 PM, Michel Bauwens <
>>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In 11 years? Ryan, that is delusional ...
>>>>>
>>>>> It takes generations for this type of change to occur
>>>>>
>>>>> we're barely starting to talk about peer and self accreditation, there
>>>>> are no sedimented practices yet
>>>>>
>>>>> of course, more and more people, like us, will learn more and more
>>>>> outside channels, finding universities irrelevant for learning (which is why
>>>>> I'm hesitating so much to do a phd, the only benefit being social
>>>>> recognition, not learning per se), but for the mass of the population, and
>>>>> the mainstream institutional world, there will be a long mutual adaptation,
>>>>> until new trust forms are sufficiently developed for general acceptance of
>>>>> learning.
>>>>>
>>>>> one should never confuse one's own situation, with the general reality;
>>>>> things will change, and sometimes non-linearly, but I think it's a very safe
>>>>> bet to say universities will be there in 2020; not only that, seeing from
>>>>> Asia, there growing like hell, (just as newspapers by the way, there's no
>>>>> crisis here, on the contrary)
>>>>>
>>>>> Michel
>>>>>
>>>>>   On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 7:16 AM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>  I'm not the only lunatic....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This from Kurzweil's group...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *************************
>>>>>> Universities will be 'irrelevant'
>>>>>> by 2020
>>>>>> Deseret News April 20, 2009
>>>>>> *************************
>>>>>> Universities will be irrelevant by
>>>>>> 2020 in a world where students
>>>>>> listen to free online lectures on
>>>>>> iPods, course materials are shared
>>>>>> between universities, science labs
>>>>>> are virtual, and digital textbooks
>>>>>> are free, says Brigham Young
>>>>>> University professor of psychology
>>>>>> and instructional technology David
>>>>>> Wiley....
>>>>>> http://www.kurzweilai.net/email/newsRedirect.html?newsID=10454&m=44482
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ryan Lanham
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>>
>>>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>>>>
>>>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>>>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>
>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>>
>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>>
>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>
> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>
> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>
> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
> http://www.shiftn.com/
>
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