[p2p-research] Was Re: P2P Medicine -- Making Your Smart Phone / Now P2P and Futurism

[Michel Bauwens]

Hi Marc, Ryan,

beautifully said Marc,

of course, vision, and thinking about the future, even utopia, are all
legitimate

my problem with superlative transhumanism is its lack of any social
awareness, its technological determinism, and scientific reductionism

of course, today, most h+ is no longer right-libertarian, but as the WTA is,
rather social-democratic in approach, so by all means, I'm in favour of
dialogue around areas of common concern

but the relentless imagining that what we wish for is already there, or just
around the corner, I find cumbersome; as is the focus on technological
promise above everything else

what I try to do, perhaps imperfectly is to distinguish clearly between
facts (they must  be correct, not imagined), moral interpretation (what
aspect do we like in these facts) and a praxis (how can we strengthen what
we like). To the degree that futurism and visioning inspires such action,
and does not distort the facts, I see no problem at all.

Michel

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 8:37 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com> wrote:

> I think Michel is referring to the ideology in a vacuum, i.e. in the
> absence of anything real.
>
> You can have a vision in the absence of something real to substantiate it
> and that is called futuring or visioning and it's part of human nature.
>
> But you cannot have an ideology in the absence of something real to
> substantiate it.
>
> So the issue, IMO, is vision vs ideology.
>
> Ideology that is there before there is any supporting reality is delusion.
>
> Vision is different, as it foreshadows what is to come and does not pretend
> that it is already here.
>
> Marc
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 12:09 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 11:21 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Sam,
>>>
>>> as you perhaps know, I studied for a number of years the implications of
>>> the  transhuman promises, when making TechnoCalyps,
>>>
>>> my problems are:
>>>
>>> 1) people like kurzweil and other superlatives go seemlessly, and
>>> unwarrantedly, from actual research, to the promise of the research, to
>>> imagining that everything is done already
>>>
>>> I wonder if the follow-on from your position, Michel, is that evangelism
>> and futurism are inconsistent with P2P systems, which are more focused on
>> deployment and solutions?
>>
>> I find the distinction of p2p to be its moral tones.  Its pervasive
>> political economic view is trust and responsibility--much more than any
>> brand of socialism or libertarianism, for example, I am aware of.
>>
>> It may be those ethical traits which remove it from evangelism and,
>> especially, futurism.  Futurism must be speculative, rhetorical and
>> visioning.  Perhaps the risks associated with those veins makes futurism
>> inconsistent with p2p's moral/ethical tone.
>>
>> Ryan
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Marc Fawzi
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>



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