[p2p-research] The nature of apple trees (was: Re: [ox-en] apples and moonfruits)

[Michel Bauwens]

stefan wrote

>
>
> There are those apple trees (aka captialism or any exchange based
> system) and these apple trees have lots of drawbacks. Those advocating
> money trickery basically say: Well, though the apple trees are bad
> there are these apple tree seeds (aka exchange). If we modify the
> seeds somehow the problems with the apple trees will vanish.


let's stay with your metaphor; let's assume we have an apple tree, not all
trees are created equal and same for the apples. Therefore, does it make
sense or not, to improve the tree and its apples, given that for a long
time, we'll depend on the apple tree, and that historically, those that try
to cut down the tree, saw it grow somewhere else. So it's not at all about
'vanishing' all the problems, but about lessening them For example, in a
time of hyper-inflation, to protect the local community from its devastating
effect.

Why do you keep using 'money trickery', would you appreciate it if I said
software trickery for free software? It's the same process of
value-sensitive design.



>
>
> The peer production advocate now would continue: What we want to
> arrive at is a world where apple trees play a minor role - if at all.
> What we want is a world where we have lots of different fruits but
> also vegetables, meat, fish, honey and so on. For this we already have
> a couple of examples like pork (aka Free Software).



Exactly, that is exactly the pluralist economy preference of the P2P
Foundation, to reduce the role of exchange to a minor subsystem. One of the
ways of doing that, is by minimising the harm that the current ill-designed
format has.

>
>
> The peer production advocate continues: For this goal to reach any
> modification of an apple tree seed is not useful because in any case
> you just end up either in apple trees or nothing at all. You simply
> can not modify an apple tree seed to become a pig.


we agree, we stay within the exchange mechanism, to make it better as long
as we have to partially or majorly rely on it, it's part of the panoply of
measures and constructions we undertake.



> It is in fact you who is ignorant because you continue to say that you
> can modify the apple tree seed to deliver pork or at least help the
> production of pork.


never said that, anywhere, you're either imagining or creating a strawman
that is easy to counter; that's bad debating style


>
>   That is what withering away means: It
> is replaced by a system working better and working on different
> grounds.


exactly, we make things better to replace it, but that doesn't preclude
improving the remainder we have to rely on for a certain time to come

let's take the real example of cars

they suck, but people want them, and it is still politically impossible to
get rid of them, so what we do

yes, first we try as much as we can to render it obsolete, by creating solid
public transport infrastructures

but for the existing car park, we make sure that the new generation is
eco-friendly, and that the old ones are replaced

similarly with the money supply,

while we improve the alternatives, we remove the most toxic forms of money,
at the same time, there is no contradiction, both strategies are congruent
and complementary


>
> > Can you practice it? The truth is, we cannot, or only
> > in very limited ways.
>
> Sorry, Michel, but you, me and StefanMz are really examples of
> practicing it. And many more as well.


I think you're answer is disingenous, because, if I'm correct, unless you
are a rentier, you are getting money for your other work, which is what
makes your peer production efforts possible


>
>
> > And while we cannot, we can start using different protocols of exchange
> and
> > sharing that already change social relationships.
> >
> > It is either that, or waiting for a Pol Pot,
>
> The contrary is true. Engaging in pointless modifications of the apple
> tree system is far more likely to end up in a Pot Pot: If it is
> against the nature of the system you have to force and kill people.



I'm not aware of any complementary currency system having killed people, I'm
very curious as to your sources

>
>
>
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