[p2p-research] P2P Medicine -- Making Your Smart Phone into an Ultrasound Device

Thu Apr 23 06:43:54 CEST 2009

hi marc,

i mean exactly as you said it <g>

concerning intersubjectivity, it comes from integral theory a la wilber,
i.e. the 4 quadrant approach,

every phenomena is seen as 4 aspects, according to two axes
internal/external, individual/collective, which gives subjective,
inter-subjectivie, objective, interobjective

a human is a psyche, a body, part of a culture, and part of systems of
bodies ... and so on,

reductionism can be psychological, materialistic, systemic, or cultural

best is to always look at all aspect of a phenomena, and only use
reductionist method as part of such an overall approach

see Beyond Perspectives, Reductionisms and Layers. Integral Review, I ssue
1, 2005 (June), pp. 14-15. Retrieved from
http://integral-review.org/documents/Integral%20Review%20and%20Its%20Editors%201,%202005.pdf

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 11:31 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com> wrote:

> Well said Michel!
>
> Also, when you say "assuming intelligence is solely in the brain" I assume
> that you're referring to the intelligence in the human body and by extension
> the environment around the human body.
>
> As far as my current thinking on intelligence, I believe that the brain is
> just one type of intelligence provider, the body is another type, and the
> environment is yet another type, but all working together.
>
> I have heard the term "inter-subjectivity" a few times already but I don't
> know exactly what it embodies...
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 9:21 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Sam,
>>
>> as you perhaps know, I studied for a number of years the implications of
>> the  transhuman promises, when making TechnoCalyps,
>>
>> my problems are:
>>
>> 1) people like kurzweil and other superlatives go seemlessly, and
>> unwarrantedly, from actual research, to the promise of the research, to
>> imagining that everything is done already
>>
>> 2) they are extermely reductionistic in their scientific methodology,
>> really backward, assuming intelligence is solely in the brain
>>
>> 3) they never take into account (inter)subjectivity, so for example we
>> know that metcalfe/reed's law are potentialities, but people do not carry
>> them out subjectively (or only to a very limited extent)
>>
>> 4) politically, they're really offbase, almost never taking care of real
>> social problems and actual political priorities, Dale Carrico has done a
>> continuous and marvelous deconstruction of the superlative sensibility in
>> that regard
>>
>>
>> So, while some of it may come true, it most often functions as an ideology
>> that takes it wishes for reality, and as I argued in TechnoCalyps, an
>> unconscious technology
>>
>> This is my argument with Ryan, I acknowledge his p2p sensibilties and his
>> contributions, but I question the automaticity of any technology-based
>> prediction
>>
>> I also think that free communities look at technological development
>> differently than the capitalist dream of getting rid of all human labour
>> altogether..
>>
>> So I question both the ideal and feasibility, and think that, the more p2p
>> dynamics there are, the less technology will have a transhuman slant,
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> I think that some people (including myself) might tend to talk about
>>> technological advancements as inevitabilities.
>>>
>>> While others are looking at the practical and actual conditions now.
>>>
>>> A lot of people have said that Kurzweil's work is useless, but one
>>> insight that he had that seems to hold true is about the exponential rate of
>>> development of technological "advancement" (among other things).
>>>
>>> There is a point where the advancement of medical AI, robotics, and
>>> so-called "expert systems" will cross a threshold that will be previously
>>> unexpected by many people. The same could be said for most technological
>>> advancement throughout the 20th century.
>>>
>>> Yet, there is also a school of critical thinking to apply, founded by
>>> people like McLuhan, Neil Postman, and others, about technology.The idea is
>>> that while AI and technologies may enhance certain aspects of a system, they
>>> can and will also "over-extend" and create a whole new problems. ( P2P
>>> phenomenae are included here )
>>>
>>>
>>> ref: Anthony Hempell,  The Tetrad: Concept,
>>> http://www.anthonyhempell.com/papers/tetrad/concept.html.
>>>
>>> A couple of components to add to this discussion are bio and genetic
>>> engineering, and very small technology.
>>>
>>> Is there a way to "prove" that the potential "enhancement" can have an
>>> equally pontential "reversal"? That is an ongoing question that I filter my
>>> onw observations of technological and human evolution through.
>>>
>>> Plus, will them emergence of these new types of technologies bring about
>>> a new kind of power imbalance, with those who are able to harness and
>>> control the technologies overpowering those who cannot?
>>>
>>> How can foresight be applied to the development of these technologies in
>>> human systems? Seems to me like the highest priotrity is creating and
>>> disseminating literacies of technology, so that people can understand what
>>> systems they are a part of, and how new emergences are likely to play out.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 10:14 PM, Michel Bauwens <
>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I agree with that qualified statement,
>>>>
>>>> Michel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 9:09 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Michel,
>>>>>
>>>>> AI and robotics will continue to reduce the level of specialization
>>>>> required by people.
>>>>>
>>>>> The surgical robots used today are already programmed with certain
>>>>> surgical maneuvers (e.g. they know how to hold a knife and make certain cuts
>>>>> and the doctor has to only give the green light)
>>>>>
>>>>> So it's easy to see someone with just a college degree (instead of 11
>>>>> years of medical schooling) operate these smart systems. I'm not saying that
>>>>> we will have zero human intervention in the near future but I'm saying that
>>>>> it democratizes the whole field of medicine by lowering the specialization
>>>>> level required to conduct medical tests and procedures. That's already
>>>>> happening and has been happening for decades.
>>>>>
>>>>> Marc
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 6:43 PM, Michel Bauwens <
>>>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 8:23 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think you're on the spot there as far as the long term evolution of
>>>>>>> the health market.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Doctors can be replaced with expert systems. Surgeons can be replaced
>>>>>>> with robots.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I personally think that's a fallacy and that expert systems will help
>>>>>> doctors (and patients), and robots will help surgeons ... I've seen little
>>>>>> evidence of such total replacement in very complex systems requiring
>>>>>> judgment calls
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Medical and pharmaceutical researchers, bioinformatics researchers,
>>>>>>> et al will still be needed. I know that some will say they too can be
>>>>>>> replaced with discovery software couped to bots that can do experiments but
>>>>>>> that's a little far fetched now since we haven't really cracked what
>>>>>>> 'creativity' is and how major breakthroughs come to us. If we had, we
>>>>>>> wouldn't be collaborating here.. we'd let our AI agents do all the
>>>>>>> creative/philosophical thinking/problem solving.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you dis-intermediate a x-ray tech and still use a doctor, you are
>>>>>>>> moving toward p2p.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And I can imagine iPhones with the capacity to analyze self
>>>>>>>> imaging...  Spot your own breaks, cancers, tooth decay by using tech.  Why
>>>>>>>> not?  Set your own bone?  Maybe you stop by a robot room.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Who needs a nutritionist?  A personal trainer?  Only people who
>>>>>>>> don't have machines that allow them to share consistent processes and best
>>>>>>>> practices.  Even sports...we don't need coaches as much as we need analyses
>>>>>>>> of bio-physics compared to large networks of performance measures given
>>>>>>>> similar styles, flaws, etc.  Is my elbow too bent?  My hand too high?
>>>>>>>> Compare me to everyone who is also 6'2" who has a better swing than me...we
>>>>>>>> all share data and performance metrics...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also, P2P has to start us rapidly on the path to bots as peers.
>>>>>>>> That's true in physical/medical realms, soon, I'd guess.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ryan Lanham
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 7:18 PM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I know that supplements are a big market.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How about self-use medical devices? I thought that's what you're
>>>>>>>>> referring to re: Smartphone ultrasound scanner.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As far as defibrillators go, I know that they're not in wide use.
>>>>>>>>> They cost around $1000.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, blood sugar and pregnancy testing devices are
>>>>>>>>> used widely.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I guess it depends on the kind of device and its price.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 5:14 PM, Ryan Lanham <
>>>>>>>>> rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Med sites amongst the largest on the web, Marc.  People playing
>>>>>>>>>> doctor all day every day.  Supplements will one day surpass big pharma I
>>>>>>>>>> predict.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ryan Lanham
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 5:17 PM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> People are not yet into playing doctor ...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For example, defibrillators save lives but less than 1% of
>>>>>>>>>>> seniors have them.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "DIY or DIE" would be a good message in case of the
>>>>>>>>>>> defibrillators.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Marc
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 1:35 PM, Ryan Lanham <
>>>>>>>>>>> rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Engineers at Washington University in St. Louis, MO have turned
>>>>>>>>>>>> a smart phone into an ultrasound platform.  It is now possible to have
>>>>>>>>>>>> relatively sophisticated medical imaging virtually anywhere in the world.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://news-info.wustl.edu/tips/page/normal/13928.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ryan Lanham
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Marc Fawzi
>>>>>>>>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>>>>>>>>>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Marc Fawzi
>>>>>>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>>>>>>>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Marc Fawzi
>>>>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>>>>>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>>>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>>>>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Marc Fawzi
>>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>>>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>
>>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>>>
>>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>>>
>>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sam Rose
>>> Social Synergy
>>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>> AIM: Str9960
>>> Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
>>> skype: samuelrose
>>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/network
>>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>>> http://localfoodsystems.org
>>> http://openfarmtech.org
>>> http://notanemployee.net
>>> http://communitywiki.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Long ago, we brought you all this fire.
>>> Do not imagine we are still chained to that rock...."
>>>
>>> http://notanemployee.net/
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>
>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>
>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Marc Fawzi
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>

-- 
Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
http://p2pfoundation.ning.com

Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens

The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
http://www.shiftn.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch_listcultures.org/attachments/20090423/dfd8182d/attachment-0001.html>