[p2p-research] P2P Medicine -- Making Your Smart Phone into an Ultrasound Device

Thu Apr 23 06:31:00 CEST 2009

Well said Michel!

Also, when you say "assuming intelligence is solely in the brain" I assume
that you're referring to the intelligence in the human body and by extension
the environment around the human body.

As far as my current thinking on intelligence, I believe that the brain is
just one type of intelligence provider, the body is another type, and the
environment is yet another type, but all working together.

I have heard the term "inter-subjectivity" a few times already but I don't
know exactly what it embodies...

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 9:21 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:

> Sam,
>
> as you perhaps know, I studied for a number of years the implications of
> the  transhuman promises, when making TechnoCalyps,
>
> my problems are:
>
> 1) people like kurzweil and other superlatives go seemlessly, and
> unwarrantedly, from actual research, to the promise of the research, to
> imagining that everything is done already
>
> 2) they are extermely reductionistic in their scientific methodology,
> really backward, assuming intelligence is solely in the brain
>
> 3) they never take into account (inter)subjectivity, so for example we know
> that metcalfe/reed's law are potentialities, but people do not carry them
> out subjectively (or only to a very limited extent)
>
> 4) politically, they're really offbase, almost never taking care of real
> social problems and actual political priorities, Dale Carrico has done a
> continuous and marvelous deconstruction of the superlative sensibility in
> that regard
>
>
> So, while some of it may come true, it most often functions as an ideology
> that takes it wishes for reality, and as I argued in TechnoCalyps, an
> unconscious technology
>
> This is my argument with Ryan, I acknowledge his p2p sensibilties and his
> contributions, but I question the automaticity of any technology-based
> prediction
>
> I also think that free communities look at technological development
> differently than the capitalist dream of getting rid of all human labour
> altogether..
>
> So I question both the ideal and feasibility, and think that, the more p2p
> dynamics there are, the less technology will have a transhuman slant,
>
> Michel
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I think that some people (including myself) might tend to talk about
>> technological advancements as inevitabilities.
>>
>> While others are looking at the practical and actual conditions now.
>>
>> A lot of people have said that Kurzweil's work is useless, but one insight
>> that he had that seems to hold true is about the exponential rate of
>> development of technological "advancement" (among other things).
>>
>> There is a point where the advancement of medical AI, robotics, and
>> so-called "expert systems" will cross a threshold that will be previously
>> unexpected by many people. The same could be said for most technological
>> advancement throughout the 20th century.
>>
>> Yet, there is also a school of critical thinking to apply, founded by
>> people like McLuhan, Neil Postman, and others, about technology.The idea is
>> that while AI and technologies may enhance certain aspects of a system, they
>> can and will also "over-extend" and create a whole new problems. ( P2P
>> phenomenae are included here )
>>
>>
>> ref: Anthony Hempell,  The Tetrad: Concept,
>> http://www.anthonyhempell.com/papers/tetrad/concept.html.
>>
>> A couple of components to add to this discussion are bio and genetic
>> engineering, and very small technology.
>>
>> Is there a way to "prove" that the potential "enhancement" can have an
>> equally pontential "reversal"? That is an ongoing question that I filter my
>> onw observations of technological and human evolution through.
>>
>> Plus, will them emergence of these new types of technologies bring about a
>> new kind of power imbalance, with those who are able to harness and control
>> the technologies overpowering those who cannot?
>>
>> How can foresight be applied to the development of these technologies in
>> human systems? Seems to me like the highest priotrity is creating and
>> disseminating literacies of technology, so that people can understand what
>> systems they are a part of, and how new emergences are likely to play out.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 10:14 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> I agree with that qualified statement,
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 9:09 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Michel,
>>>>
>>>> AI and robotics will continue to reduce the level of specialization
>>>> required by people.
>>>>
>>>> The surgical robots used today are already programmed with certain
>>>> surgical maneuvers (e.g. they know how to hold a knife and make certain cuts
>>>> and the doctor has to only give the green light)
>>>>
>>>> So it's easy to see someone with just a college degree (instead of 11
>>>> years of medical schooling) operate these smart systems. I'm not saying that
>>>> we will have zero human intervention in the near future but I'm saying that
>>>> it democratizes the whole field of medicine by lowering the specialization
>>>> level required to conduct medical tests and procedures. That's already
>>>> happening and has been happening for decades.
>>>>
>>>> Marc
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 6:43 PM, Michel Bauwens <
>>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 8:23 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think you're on the spot there as far as the long term evolution of
>>>>>> the health market.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Doctors can be replaced with expert systems. Surgeons can be replaced
>>>>>> with robots.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I personally think that's a fallacy and that expert systems will help
>>>>> doctors (and patients), and robots will help surgeons ... I've seen little
>>>>> evidence of such total replacement in very complex systems requiring
>>>>> judgment calls
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Medical and pharmaceutical researchers, bioinformatics researchers, et
>>>>>> al will still be needed. I know that some will say they too can be replaced
>>>>>> with discovery software couped to bots that can do experiments but that's a
>>>>>> little far fetched now since we haven't really cracked what 'creativity' is
>>>>>> and how major breakthroughs come to us. If we had, we wouldn't be
>>>>>> collaborating here.. we'd let our AI agents do all the
>>>>>> creative/philosophical thinking/problem solving.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you dis-intermediate a x-ray tech and still use a doctor, you are
>>>>>>> moving toward p2p.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And I can imagine iPhones with the capacity to analyze self
>>>>>>> imaging...  Spot your own breaks, cancers, tooth decay by using tech.  Why
>>>>>>> not?  Set your own bone?  Maybe you stop by a robot room.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Who needs a nutritionist?  A personal trainer?  Only people who don't
>>>>>>> have machines that allow them to share consistent processes and best
>>>>>>> practices.  Even sports...we don't need coaches as much as we need analyses
>>>>>>> of bio-physics compared to large networks of performance measures given
>>>>>>> similar styles, flaws, etc.  Is my elbow too bent?  My hand too high?
>>>>>>> Compare me to everyone who is also 6'2" who has a better swing than me...we
>>>>>>> all share data and performance metrics...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, P2P has to start us rapidly on the path to bots as peers.
>>>>>>> That's true in physical/medical realms, soon, I'd guess.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ryan Lanham
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 7:18 PM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I know that supplements are a big market.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How about self-use medical devices? I thought that's what you're
>>>>>>>> referring to re: Smartphone ultrasound scanner.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As far as defibrillators go, I know that they're not in wide use.
>>>>>>>> They cost around $1000.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On the other hand, blood sugar and pregnancy testing devices are
>>>>>>>> used widely.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I guess it depends on the kind of device and its price.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 5:14 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Med sites amongst the largest on the web, Marc.  People playing
>>>>>>>>> doctor all day every day.  Supplements will one day surpass big pharma I
>>>>>>>>> predict.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ryan Lanham
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 5:17 PM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> People are not yet into playing doctor ...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For example, defibrillators save lives but less than 1% of seniors
>>>>>>>>>> have them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "DIY or DIE" would be a good message in case of the
>>>>>>>>>> defibrillators.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Marc
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 1:35 PM, Ryan Lanham <
>>>>>>>>>> rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Engineers at Washington University in St. Louis, MO have turned a
>>>>>>>>>>> smart phone into an ultrasound platform.  It is now possible to have
>>>>>>>>>>> relatively sophisticated medical imaging virtually anywhere in the world.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://news-info.wustl.edu/tips/page/normal/13928.html
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ryan Lanham
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Marc Fawzi
>>>>>>>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>>>>>>>>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Marc Fawzi
>>>>>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>>>>>>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marc Fawzi
>>>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>>>>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>>
>>>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>>>>
>>>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>>>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Marc Fawzi
>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>
>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>>
>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>>
>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sam Rose
>> Social Synergy
>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>> AIM: Str9960
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>> skype: samuelrose
>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
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>> http://openfarmtech.org
>> http://notanemployee.net
>> http://communitywiki.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Long ago, we brought you all this fire.
>> Do not imagine we are still chained to that rock...."
>>
>> http://notanemployee.net/
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>
> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>
> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>
> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
> http://www.shiftn.com/
>

-- 

Marc Fawzi
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
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