[p2p-research] P2P Medicine -- Making Your Smart Phone into an Ultrasound Device

Thu Apr 23 06:21:10 CEST 2009

Sam,

as you perhaps know, I studied for a number of years the implications of
the  transhuman promises, when making TechnoCalyps,

my problems are:

1) people like kurzweil and other superlatives go seemlessly, and
unwarrantedly, from actual research, to the promise of the research, to
imagining that everything is done already

2) they are extermely reductionistic in their scientific methodology, really
backward, assuming intelligence is solely in the brain

3) they never take into account (inter)subjectivity, so for example we know
that metcalfe/reed's law are potentialities, but people do not carry them
out subjectively (or only to a very limited extent)

4) politically, they're really offbase, almost never taking care of real
social problems and actual political priorities, Dale Carrico has done a
continuous and marvelous deconstruction of the superlative sensibility in
that regard

So, while some of it may come true, it most often functions as an ideology
that takes it wishes for reality, and as I argued in TechnoCalyps, an
unconscious technology

This is my argument with Ryan, I acknowledge his p2p sensibilties and his
contributions, but I question the automaticity of any technology-based
prediction

I also think that free communities look at technological development
differently than the capitalist dream of getting rid of all human labour
altogether..

So I question both the ideal and feasibility, and think that, the more p2p
dynamics there are, the less technology will have a transhuman slant,

Michel

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:

> I think that some people (including myself) might tend to talk about
> technological advancements as inevitabilities.
>
> While others are looking at the practical and actual conditions now.
>
> A lot of people have said that Kurzweil's work is useless, but one insight
> that he had that seems to hold true is about the exponential rate of
> development of technological "advancement" (among other things).
>
> There is a point where the advancement of medical AI, robotics, and
> so-called "expert systems" will cross a threshold that will be previously
> unexpected by many people. The same could be said for most technological
> advancement throughout the 20th century.
>
> Yet, there is also a school of critical thinking to apply, founded by
> people like McLuhan, Neil Postman, and others, about technology.The idea is
> that while AI and technologies may enhance certain aspects of a system, they
> can and will also "over-extend" and create a whole new problems. ( P2P
> phenomenae are included here )
>
>
> ref: Anthony Hempell,  The Tetrad: Concept,
> http://www.anthonyhempell.com/papers/tetrad/concept.html.
>
> A couple of components to add to this discussion are bio and genetic
> engineering, and very small technology.
>
> Is there a way to "prove" that the potential "enhancement" can have an
> equally pontential "reversal"? That is an ongoing question that I filter my
> onw observations of technological and human evolution through.
>
> Plus, will them emergence of these new types of technologies bring about a
> new kind of power imbalance, with those who are able to harness and control
> the technologies overpowering those who cannot?
>
> How can foresight be applied to the development of these technologies in
> human systems? Seems to me like the highest priotrity is creating and
> disseminating literacies of technology, so that people can understand what
> systems they are a part of, and how new emergences are likely to play out.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 10:14 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I agree with that qualified statement,
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 9:09 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Michel,
>>>
>>> AI and robotics will continue to reduce the level of specialization
>>> required by people.
>>>
>>> The surgical robots used today are already programmed with certain
>>> surgical maneuvers (e.g. they know how to hold a knife and make certain cuts
>>> and the doctor has to only give the green light)
>>>
>>> So it's easy to see someone with just a college degree (instead of 11
>>> years of medical schooling) operate these smart systems. I'm not saying that
>>> we will have zero human intervention in the near future but I'm saying that
>>> it democratizes the whole field of medicine by lowering the specialization
>>> level required to conduct medical tests and procedures. That's already
>>> happening and has been happening for decades.
>>>
>>> Marc
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 6:43 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 8:23 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think you're on the spot there as far as the long term evolution of
>>>>> the health market.
>>>>>
>>>>> Doctors can be replaced with expert systems. Surgeons can be replaced
>>>>> with robots.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I personally think that's a fallacy and that expert systems will help
>>>> doctors (and patients), and robots will help surgeons ... I've seen little
>>>> evidence of such total replacement in very complex systems requiring
>>>> judgment calls
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Medical and pharmaceutical researchers, bioinformatics researchers, et
>>>>> al will still be needed. I know that some will say they too can be replaced
>>>>> with discovery software couped to bots that can do experiments but that's a
>>>>> little far fetched now since we haven't really cracked what 'creativity' is
>>>>> and how major breakthroughs come to us. If we had, we wouldn't be
>>>>> collaborating here.. we'd let our AI agents do all the
>>>>> creative/philosophical thinking/problem solving.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> If you dis-intermediate a x-ray tech and still use a doctor, you are
>>>>>> moving toward p2p.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And I can imagine iPhones with the capacity to analyze self
>>>>>> imaging...  Spot your own breaks, cancers, tooth decay by using tech.  Why
>>>>>> not?  Set your own bone?  Maybe you stop by a robot room.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Who needs a nutritionist?  A personal trainer?  Only people who don't
>>>>>> have machines that allow them to share consistent processes and best
>>>>>> practices.  Even sports...we don't need coaches as much as we need analyses
>>>>>> of bio-physics compared to large networks of performance measures given
>>>>>> similar styles, flaws, etc.  Is my elbow too bent?  My hand too high?
>>>>>> Compare me to everyone who is also 6'2" who has a better swing than me...we
>>>>>> all share data and performance metrics...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, P2P has to start us rapidly on the path to bots as peers.
>>>>>> That's true in physical/medical realms, soon, I'd guess.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ryan Lanham
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 7:18 PM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know that supplements are a big market.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How about self-use medical devices? I thought that's what you're
>>>>>>> referring to re: Smartphone ultrasound scanner.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As far as defibrillators go, I know that they're not in wide use.
>>>>>>> They cost around $1000.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the other hand, blood sugar and pregnancy testing devices are used
>>>>>>> widely.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I guess it depends on the kind of device and its price.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 5:14 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Med sites amongst the largest on the web, Marc.  People playing
>>>>>>>> doctor all day every day.  Supplements will one day surpass big pharma I
>>>>>>>> predict.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ryan Lanham
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 5:17 PM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> People are not yet into playing doctor ...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For example, defibrillators save lives but less than 1% of seniors
>>>>>>>>> have them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "DIY or DIE" would be a good message in case of the defibrillators.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Marc
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 1:35 PM, Ryan Lanham <
>>>>>>>>> rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Engineers at Washington University in St. Louis, MO have turned a
>>>>>>>>>> smart phone into an ultrasound platform.  It is now possible to have
>>>>>>>>>> relatively sophisticated medical imaging virtually anywhere in the world.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://news-info.wustl.edu/tips/page/normal/13928.html
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ryan Lanham
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Marc Fawzi
>>>>>>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>>>>>>>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Marc Fawzi
>>>>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>>>>>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Marc Fawzi
>>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>>>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>
>>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>>>
>>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>>>
>>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Marc Fawzi
>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>
>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>
>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Sam Rose
> Social Synergy
> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
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>
>
>
>
> "Long ago, we brought you all this fire.
> Do not imagine we are still chained to that rock...."
>
> http://notanemployee.net/
>

-- 
Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
http://p2pfoundation.ning.com

Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens

The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
http://www.shiftn.com/
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