[p2p-research] [ox-en] Re: Governance and Incorporation (was Socialized Infrastructure (Sweden))
Michel Bauwens
michelsub2004 at gmail.com
Wed Apr 22 12:04:21 CEST 2009
Dear Norie,
thanks for your reply,
I note 2 extra items, the book and your currency project
for the book, please let me know when it comes out, for our book of the week
treatment, and when you have something coming out of the currency project, I
would of course love to report on it as well
for me, the most serious attempt seems to be the multicurrency platform from
eric harris-braun, though thomas greco recently wrote he has an integrated
strategy, and bernard lietaer has been comparing existing softwares rather
intensively .. I'm sure you're already in touch with all of them, if not, I
have the emails
as for the event, I'm just as happy to wait for something to emerge, as I
understand you are suggesting,
Michel
Right now, I'm finishing up a book called Money, Power and Purpose: How to
Create a Global Economics of Generosity, Abundance and Sustainability.
We're also in the process of massively ramping up our Garden of Paradise
project in Ecuador—where we'll be playing The Game as an ongoing
"documentary soap-opera". Again, the Scenario will give you a sense of
that, although today's potential scenarios are MUCH more interesting.
Also, I'm in the process of contacting key colleagues around the world to
see who out there is working on large-scale alternative banking and exchange
structures. I want to help these folks find each other, since many hands
make light work and the synergies just might get us excellent results
faster. I very much want such a system in place in time to give us
value-oriented folks another quite different choice if the IMS is indeed
planning to implement a global currency / system of exchange later this
year. Much more can be said about this but not now.
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 9:03 PM, Norie Huddle <noriehuddle at mac.com> wrote:
> Hi Michael,
> I see that you're joining Alex in pushing me out into the networks.... Hi
> everyone! Thank you for what you're doing! Excuse the "deer caught in the
> headlights" look in my eyes....
>
> Analytical is an important piece of what we're doing, Michael, and you're
> brilliant at it. So is Alex. And, confession: I can "do" analytical
> decently well, too, and can put all my friends to sleep by going on and on
> and on in the analytical vein for hours and hours. A gift if they're
> insomnic, however, not so great for having a sustainable conversation.
>
> So, that being said, I find that true and lasting transformation happens
> most readily through direct experience and to a lesser degree through shared
> scenario building, shared story-telling, shared role-playing, etc. So, I
> have a definite bias toward producing "something fun" that will take us
> somewhere in the direction that we agree we want to go in: preferably
> something that will deftly push a very long and intricate set of lines of
> well-placed dominos.
>
> Rather than spend lots of time writing emails, I would definitely prefer to
> do something live when that possibility emerges. That way, instead of
> talking about it, we're doing it live, in the moment, videotaping it,
> putting the video out into the www, adding in links that drive self-selected
> traffic, etc., etc., etc.
>
> I am also glacially patient, a habit of mind and character developed while
> living in Japan for four years. Whenever this live event happens is fine
> with me. If it doesn't happen in Barcelona, it will happen somewhere else.
> Certainly it will be happening down in our Garden of Paradise and we're
> already doing many parts of it. (Btw, we're back in the USA till late July,
> in West Virginia.)
>
> I appreciate and empathize with your work load situation, as I have a
> similar "mile-high-pile" in front of me, screaming to be dealt with.
>
> Re: The Game, the website represents decently good thinking over almost
> three decades and testing of the systems since 1980, so I suggest that
> anyone reading this email who has the time to check out www.bestgame.org,
> just put the link to the site wherever you think it is suitable. I trust
> your judgment, Michael, and that of anyone reading this post, until I'm
> given reason to think otherwise.
>
> Re: presentations, I prefer collaborative engagements. When I've done
> workshops on The Best Game on Earth, I've found that the most interesting
> experience is to tell three stories that were seminal in my getting the idea
> (one is at the website) and then ask people, "How would YOU go about
> designing such a conscious life-game that can become a kind of ram jet for
> the transformation of humanity in a positive direction?" I learn from them,
> they learn from me, we all have a fabulous time.
>
> I've not done these workshops for about 12 years and the new variant will
> definitely go live with the kind of thing I mentioned in paragraph one.
>
> Barcelona does sound like an interesting possibility. And certainly it
> would be a great pleasure and privilege to meet European colleagues who have
> been working so hard on this "thing" we're all creating together.
>
> Right now, I'm finishing up a book called Money, Power and Purpose: How
> to Create a Global Economics of Generosity, Abundance and Sustainability.
> We're also in the process of massively ramping up our Garden of Paradise
> project in Ecuador—where we'll be playing The Game as an ongoing
> "documentary soap-opera". Again, the Scenario will give you a sense of
> that, although today's potential scenarios are MUCH more interesting.
>
> Also, I'm in the process of contacting key colleagues around the world to
> see who out there is working on large-scale alternative banking and exchange
> structures. I want to help these folks find each other, since many hands
> make light work and the synergies just might get us excellent results
> faster. I very much want such a system in place in time to give us
> value-oriented folks another quite different choice if the IMS is indeed
> planning to implement a global currency / system of exchange later this
> year. Much more can be said about this but not now. I think all of you are
> tracking this anyway.
>
> So, I'm grateful to you and Alex for all your fine work and for shoving me
> out into networks, albeit kicking and screaming that I don't have time. I
> apologize. I know that's true of all of us. However, I confess that I do
> prefer engaging with people who take the time to check out what I've got out
> there. ----> I suspect every one reading this feels the same!!
>
> Here are our links: www.bestgame.org and www.gardenofparadise.net
> Does any of this resonate with anyone out there?
>
> On the analytical front, in the "tools and mapping" domain: I'm attaching
> a 2-page synopsis I did of a brilliant holistic systems approach I was
> trained in back in the Dark Ages (1966). Anyone reading the attachment:
> Please feel free to share it and post it on list serves, etc., anywhere you
> think people will be interested and find it useful.
>
> Caveat: MUCH more can be said about the KEEPRAH and how to use it, as
> these are the bare-bones outlines. If Barcelona or some other venue comes
> together, I would like to share the KEEPRAH in more depth, relating it to
> our collective endeavors. This is the mapping system I've used (with a few
> modifications that made sense to me) since 1966 for the work I've been
> doing, to help me identify blockages, linkages that need to be established,
> leverage points, etc., etc.
>
> All the best, thanks again for everything you are all doing!! Together we
> can do what no one of us can do alone.
> Norie
>
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 21, 2009, at 12:29 AM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>
>
> Hi Norie,
>
> you are right, I'm more analytical, which makes it more difficult for me as
> well to imagine it without actually experiencing it.
>
> this is not the best of time for me to explore it in depth, I just
> restarted work with a huge backlog and am getting stressed a little about
> preparing coursework <g>
>
> perhaps I can invite you to present the Game as a blogpost, and also as a
> permanent wiki file at http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Facilitation
>
> otherwise, one possibility would be to explore it as a facilitation
> methodology for one of the future P2P Research Group meet-ups,
>
> where we would combine the topic of distributed infrastructures, with the
> game as the process chosen?
>
> (athina has a calendar on future plans)
>
> we could do this at citilab in barcelona at some point ...
>
> I'm not going to take the lead in this, but I'm happy to suggest it to our
> community, and see if it generates any positive feedback,
>
> so, here we go <g>,
>
> Michel
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 11:02 PM, Norie Huddle <noriehuddle at mac.com>wrote:
>
>> Hi Michael,
>> I agree with your assessment re: the need for an integrated distributed
>> infrastructure for all aspects of social life. I realize that you are using
>> a more analytical approach to describe systems, while my approach is more
>> narrative - storytelling. There is, of course, a role for both and each
>> style of communicating will reach different audiences that will potentially
>> be interested. In my approach, the systems act "invisibly" and, indeed,
>> many suitable systems are already out there in society functioning with
>> great success.
>>
>> What I'm suggesting is a way to integrate such things within a new
>> framework - a set of goals and guidelines for behavior. Thus, I use the
>> metaphor of a "game".
>>
>> Incidentally, it took me 10 years to write the Goal and the Rules of The
>> Game.
>>
>> Have you by any chance had a chance to read the Scenario yet?
>> http://www.bestgame.org/32.html?&clear=1 This was actually first written
>> in 1982, then revised in 1985 and again in 1994.
>>
>> As a kind of "thought experiment", imagine some of your favorite "Players"
>> in the distributed infrastructure community around the world videotaping
>> short dynamic clips of their activities and conversations and then putting
>> them up online. Then, along that video "story line", add links for
>> purchasing products, attending conferences or any sort of transaction.
>>
>> Then, tie this whole story line + links to facilitate transactions to a
>> parallel digital credit exchange system....or, indeed, to a variety of
>> alternative currencies, LETS, Time Dollars, etc. Much the way you have a
>> choice today as to what credit card you want to use.
>>
>> There can be consciously designed activities, with rewards and incentives
>> for participating, that encourage activities in key areas, e.g., biosphere
>> regeneration, healing human relations. I've given this a good deal of
>> thought.
>>
>> Anyway, I do think that you might find it interesting to spend a little
>> more time with The Game concepts. This represents a good deal of thinking
>> and all the component parts have been tested by me or by others, with
>> extraordinary success. In Ecuador we're putting it all together to see what
>> we can do with this little seed crystal.
>>
>> I'm copying this to Alex, since I think he will be interested in this
>> exchange. We're exploring a collaboration on putting together a nested
>> experiment using Lot 1 of our property in Ecuador. I'm also copying this to
>> my partner, Richard.
>>
>> If you think any of this is useful to your networks, feel free to copy
>> them. I'm heading out the door and will be back early evening.
>>
>> All good things,
>> Norie
>>
>> On Apr 20, 2009, at 10:45 AM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>>
>> Hi Norie,
>>
>> thanks for that last question ...
>>
>> I would guess the edge for me would have to arrive at some integrated
>> sense of what needs to be done in terms of 'distributed infrastructures' for
>> all aspects of social life. I'm not a fanatic against any centralisation,
>> BUT, I think we need more now treshold alternatives to them, going from food
>> to manufacturing to everything ... That way, we can combine global open
>> design communities with more local autonomous communities, and find a
>> junction between both. Out of that junction, in my opinion, the template of
>> the new civilisation will be born.
>>
>> However, I must admit I spent most of my time maintaining and gardening
>> the community right now. I used to do this full-time, but have become too
>> poor to maintain this, so I now have a full time job, it really complicates
>> things, though my job environment is pleasant. The p2p-foundation doesn't
>> sell anything, and I found chiang mai to be a to remote and isolated place
>> to do my kind of work,
>>
>> So now I am here in bkk, unfortunately separated from my family from now
>> on ...
>>
>> Anyway, before the end of the year, I hope to have this more integrated
>> sense of a globa-local distributed infrastructure set,
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>
>> On 4/20/09, Norie Huddle <noriehuddle at mac.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> You're already playing The Game, Michel.
>>>
>>> The Scenario, http://www.bestgame.org/32.html?&clear=1 - very dated,
>>> will give you the sense of the eight components of The Game in synergistic
>>> action. Today, scenarios would be much more interesting and embedded links
>>> to possible action / conversation zones would also be far more interesting.
>>>
>>>
>>> In Japan and Russia, yes, there have been articles reaching quite a few
>>> million people. A few small publications in the USA have done pieces about
>>> The Game but no one big. The site needs to be redesigned to accommodate far
>>> more traffic and links to other sites, etc. Or, the site just needs to
>>> point to some hubs that are already connecting to all sorts of great
>>> activities. What The Game does is give a framework for what is going on
>>> globally. As does my book, Butterfly.
>>>
>>>
>>> In Ecuador we're putting together a "seed crystal" of a new global
>>> civilization, using The Game components plus the wholistic systems
>>> methodology I mentioned in an earlier email. And anything else that looks
>>> useful, interesting, fun, enlivening.
>>>
>>>
>>> What is the opening edge of your research and thinking right now, Michel?
>>> I very much look forward to hearing about it, as you seem like a thoughtful
>>> human being.
>>>
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>> Norie
>>> www.gardenofparadise.net
>>>
>>> On Apr 20, 2009, at 10:21 AM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>>>
>>> I did check, but I guess it's something to be experienced, rather than
>>> read about!
>>>
>>> Have there been any articles about it?
>>>
>>> will google ...
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4/20/09, Norie Huddle <noriehuddle at mac.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Michel, I'm gearing up for coming back out more in the public
>>>> eye....been doing homework, huddled in the cave on top the mountain
>>>> (figuratively speaking).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do check my website, www.bestgame.org. I'm confident you'll appreciate
>>>> more than most what I've been putting together... You could also do a google
>>>> on my name + butterfly and get some fun stuff.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Norie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 20, 2009, at 9:30 AM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Norie,
>>>>
>>>> salinas = salesians, yes, that's a cause of confusion, unless there are
>>>> salesians in salinas, I'll check <g>
>>>>
>>>> I also see we know some of the same people like Bernard and Marylin!
>>>>
>>>> Any writings of you on the web?
>>>>
>>>> Michel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 4/20/09, Norie Huddle <noriehuddle at mac.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Michael,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for your email and the links.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I had heard there was a group of rather enlightened Catholic priests in
>>>>> Salinas, Ecuador, who were teaching poor people ... but that they also had a
>>>>> cooperative component. Just did a google search and got this:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://books.google.com/books?id=gweiEoLSDyAC&pg=PA202&lpg=PA202&dq=Salinas,+Ecuador+%2B+Salesians&source=bl&ots=qtaocNKM2s&sig=d1Y9VSUk-PI5KbE3A9GQRGDzaww&hl=en&ei=5mPsSbT2KqDKtgfBy82ZBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There were more links but I'll dig into them later.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The Mondragon experiment sounds quite fascinating. I've been studying
>>>>> *From Mondragon to America* by Greg McLeod, which gives a goodly
>>>>> amount of detail about HOW they structured things, including charts of
>>>>> governance.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I also did a google on you and watched your YouTube clip:
>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dn929K_jVQI
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We're definitely working on different aspects of the same design
>>>>> challenge. I was trained in systems thinking (an applied anthropology
>>>>> model) back in the mid 1960s and have been using it to find structural
>>>>> defects in the major systems of society, down in the deep foundations of the
>>>>> architecture. (I wish everyone could have as much fun!) I've done this for
>>>>> about 40 years. This, naturally, led me to look for how to redesign those
>>>>> systems (down in the deep foundations) and to look for leverage points for
>>>>> transformation. I.e., where can you push the domino and ...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Much more could be said. I'm hoping to get across The Pond sometime to
>>>>> meet up for some great conversations with colleagues in Europe. I'm already
>>>>> linked with the Union of International Associations and Marilyn Mehlman
>>>>> (Global Action Agenda) in Sweden, Bernard Lietaer (money redesign) is an old
>>>>> friend and colleague, and there are many others.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure when the time is right, the perfect situation will arise to
>>>>> bring me over.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Michel, I'm glad we've connected and look forward to learning more
>>>>> about the unfolding edges of your work and thinking. I do think you'll
>>>>> resonate with The Best Game on Earth. www.bestgame.org.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Norie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 20, 2009, at 7:20 AM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Norie,
>>>>>
>>>>> the Salesian are not a coop but a catholic teaching order, what
>>>>> distinguishes them is the preference for the poor and underprivileged
>>>>> children,
>>>>>
>>>>> My contact is Julian Fox, author of Digital Virtues and Hacking Heaven,
>>>>> see in cc,
>>>>>
>>>>> For iMalls, see:
>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/imalls-global-globally-networking-local-communities/2009/04/23
>>>>>
>>>>> (i can give you his email)
>>>>>
>>>>> « Electronic handicrafts: A chance for regional workplaces?<http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/electronic-handicrafts-a-chance-for-regional-workplaces/2009/04/20>
>>>>>
>>>>> iMalls Global: globally networking local communities?<http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/imalls-global-globally-networking-local-communities/2009/04/23>
>>>>> [image: photo of Michel Bauwens] Michel Bauwens
>>>>> 23rd April 2009
>>>>>
>>>>> Via Franz Nahrada, who reports that Klaus Stoll, founder of iMalls<http://www.imallsglobal.com/>and based in Ecuador, is considering moving these projects to a Global
>>>>> Village oriented infrastructure.
>>>>>
>>>>> *Klaus Stoll:*
>>>>>
>>>>> *“The previous concept of “Telecenters” or whatever you want to call
>>>>> PIAP’s (Public Internet Access Points), was based on connectivity and did
>>>>> not in a sufficient way address the question of “For What?”. The answer to
>>>>> this questions is simply: “To improve the lives of of individuals and the
>>>>> communities they live in!”.*
>>>>>
>>>>> *How?. Here we have to get back to the basic needs and these are:
>>>>> Health, Communication, Culture, Education, Ecological sustainability and
>>>>> Economy, (=meaning food on the table).*
>>>>>
>>>>> *The question is” How can we use the new technologies to address the
>>>>> basic needs?”. I think we will find that there are many very useful tools
>>>>> and resources already existing on-line, so why is their impact so limited.
>>>>> *
>>>>>
>>>>> *The answer here is because whilst the tools and resources exist they
>>>>> are not implemented because they are not based on the existing social
>>>>> structures and support systems. (the are literally hanging in Cyberspace and
>>>>> are not rooted in something real like a community). Here is where the
>>>>> communities come in.*
>>>>>
>>>>> *The communities need to look at what is out there and take, implement
>>>>> and use in a sustainable way that what is relevant and sustainable for them.
>>>>> *
>>>>>
>>>>> *For example: They can use IMalls as an experience and example for
>>>>> using the internet to manage trade inside a community and between
>>>>> communities local regional and global. The hope is that they adapt existing
>>>>> tools and experiences to their reality and reject everything that is not
>>>>> relevant, sustainable or even hurtful. The Internet is a new kind of hammer
>>>>> and communities need to discover how to use it to drive the new nails into
>>>>> the walls of a new cyber world. But their hammer, their nails, their cyber
>>>>> world, not anybody else’s.*
>>>>>
>>>>> *All this means simply instead of creating tools and resources we
>>>>> should help to create communities that are able to use and develop the new
>>>>> tools for them, based on their community needs and desires. We are talking
>>>>> Global Villages here and at the same time a new generation of Telecenters,
>>>>> Telecenters that are based not on a Community having access to the ICT’s but
>>>>> Communities that are using ICT’s for their development. Here is where the
>>>>> Global Villages Network and GTA become one.” *
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 6:09 PM, Norie Huddle <noriehuddle at mac.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Michel, Are the Salesians similar at all to the Mondragon group in
>>>>>> the Basque part of Spain? If so, I had heard of them and was wanting to
>>>>>> check them out. I've been studying the Mondragon model for our project. Do
>>>>>> you have a contact for the Salesians? I would love to meet them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I looked up iMalls. It looks pretty much like the usual commercial
>>>>>> mega site. Is there something special about it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>> Norie
>>>>>> PS. Where are you geographically?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 20, 2009, at 5:51 AM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the salesians are a catholic teaching order (don bosco schools) who
>>>>>> work with poor students, have a politechnica university in quito, and
>>>>>> invited me to a free software for free education congress;
>>>>>>
>>>>>> klaus stoll is a ngo guy, lutheran pastor, founder of iMalls, lives
>>>>>> in quito as well,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michel
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 4:32 PM, Norie Huddle <noriehuddle at mac.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Right now we're in West Virginia, going back to Ecuador in July.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Who are the Salesians and Klauss Stoll? Which part of Ecuador?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>> Norie
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 20, 2009, at 5:30 AM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> oh, are you in ecuador, I was there last November, with the
>>>>>>> Salesians ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> do you know Klauss Stoll?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Michel
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 4:24 PM, Norie Huddle <noriehuddle at mac.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Michel,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That was the first email I sent, in response to a cc that Alex
>>>>>>>> Rollin sent me with his latest post. So, no earlier emails.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here's the URL for the overall project: www.gardenofparadise.net.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What Alex and I are exploring is an experimental governance design
>>>>>>>> for Lot 1.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All good things,
>>>>>>>> Norie
>>>>>>>> PS. Also relevant on a broader scale is the work I've been doing to
>>>>>>>> design what I call The Best Game on Earth: www.bestgame.org.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Apr 20, 2009, at 4:28 AM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> hi norie,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> some of your earlier emails may have bounced as well,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> where do we find basic info on your project?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Michel
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>>>>> From: Kevin Carson <free.market.anticapitalist at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 7:02 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [p2p-research] [ox-en] Re: Governance and Incorporation
>>>>>>>> (was Socialized Infrastructure (Sweden))
>>>>>>>> To: Peer-To-Peer Research List <p2presearch at listcultures.org>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't usually scan through the Auto-discard notifications because
>>>>>>>> there are too many of them, but I thought this should go through.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>>>>> From: p2presearch-bounces at listcultures.org
>>>>>>>> <p2presearch-bounces at listcultures.org>
>>>>>>>> Date: Apr 19, 2009 4:48 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Auto-discard notification
>>>>>>>> To: p2presearch-owner at listcultures.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The attached message has been automatically discarded.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>>>>> From: Norie Huddle <noriehuddle at mac.com>
>>>>>>>> To: alex.rollin at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 19:48:15 -0400
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ox-en] Re: Governance and Incorporation (was
>>>>>>>> Socialized
>>>>>>>> Infrastructure (Sweden))
>>>>>>>> Hi Alex,
>>>>>>>> I've embedded some comments in your text.
>>>>>>>> Cheers, I'm offline for the rest of the night.
>>>>>>>> Norie
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Apr 19, 2009, at 7:27 PM, Alex Rollin wrote:
>>>>>>>> I'm working on prototyping some game setups (also know as corporate
>>>>>>>> and legal entities and organizations and stakeholder groups) to
>>>>>>>> explore patterns in mutual ownership of the means of production.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In many instances it is not, for example, possible to reward remote
>>>>>>>> investors with anything but state currency, so, this imperfect
>>>>>>>> variable must be watched, yes?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In our case, remote investors might take rewards in the form of
>>>>>>>> destination vacations, spa services, etc., rather than money. We
>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>> get REALLY creative here, a kind of game.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And a focus can be kept on, for example, minimizing profits for
>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>> who are involved on a sweat equity level, especially locally, so
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> the common good focus maintains primacy and spoils hierarchical
>>>>>>>> context (or the power it can have on motive.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Perhaps part of sweat equity could be rewarded with other people's
>>>>>>>> sweat equity - like a time dollars exchange..?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This might be done through credits against production of, say, food
>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> housing.Fine
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is all very delicate, of course, since it involves some
>>>>>>>> obfuscation if there are multiple rewards systems, like profits in
>>>>>>>> dollars for some but not others. The profit of dollars is a sort of
>>>>>>>> privilege, then, bestowed as a measure of embeddedness in hierarchy,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> however artificial, yes?If we decide we want / need to hang on to
>>>>>>>> money to use where only money will work for desired exchanges to
>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>> place, the challenge is to think up various kinds of (non monetary)
>>>>>>>> rewards that will be attractive to various "investors"... related to
>>>>>>>> #1comment above.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One of the ways to handle this may be to group shareholders of
>>>>>>>> production assets together in a flat space, then...this would be a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> good way of defending the '1 share, 1 vote' mode of governance.Not
>>>>>>>> sure I understand this
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In that case, then, those receiving rewards as direct credits
>>>>>>>> against
>>>>>>>> production can be counted on to vote in favor of increasing
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> production?Concrete example would help
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of note is the idea that the direction chosen by investors can be
>>>>>>>> countered or vetoed by 'the commons,' as outlined in Chris Cook's
>>>>>>>> presentations on the role of the custodian in seeing to the vision
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the long term care of the production assets.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We plan, in our case, to vet our investors so they understand our
>>>>>>>> vision and we understand theirs and we are aligned; if they prove
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> to be aligned, we pay them off at the end of the minimal term of
>>>>>>>> investment and thank them, kiss them on the cheek and say bye
>>>>>>>> bye...OR, if they want to continue, they pay (take partial payment
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> our debt to them) to go through programs that will support their
>>>>>>>> increased consciousness. We will probably charge them a lot for
>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>> programs, just to make it a sincere decision on their part.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's a complex system. Sorry to throw more pieces in there. Maybe
>>>>>>>> someone can shed some light on another way to simplify that role,
>>>>>>>> too,
>>>>>>>> as an automata.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 12:53 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > [Converted from multipart/alternative]
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > [1 text/plain]
>>>>>>>> > Hot or not, the analysis holds up
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > http://www.univie.ac.at/virtuallabs/Snowdrift/
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 12:49 PM, Alex Rollin <
>>>>>>>> alex.rollin at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > > [Converted from multipart/alternative]
>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>> > > [1 text/plain]
>>>>>>>> > > OMG that is SOO HOT
>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>> > > "any hierarchy, including renewable hierarchies, is a structure
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> > > rewards
>>>>>>>> > > "scarcity of unpaid
>>>>>>>> > > cooperation"
>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>> > > OMG
>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>> > > On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 9:26 PM, marc fawzi <
>>>>>>>> marc.fawzi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>> > > > [Converted from multipart/alternative]
>>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > [1 text/plain]
>>>>>>>> > > > Patrick,
>>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > The corporation as an organizational hierarchy, and I would
>>>>>>>> argue, based
>>>>>>>> > > on
>>>>>>>> > > > relatively new work in evolutionary game theory (see Snowdrift
>>>>>>>> Game vs
>>>>>>>> > > > Prisoner's Dilemma thread on P2P Research), that any
>>>>>>>> hierarchy, including
>>>>>>>> > > > renewable hierarchies, is a structure that rewards "scarcity
>>>>>>>> of unpaid
>>>>>>>> > > > cooperation" .. This is pretty deep, IMO.
>>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > Inspired leaders can say that they want to lead by uniting not
>>>>>>>> dividing
>>>>>>>> > > but
>>>>>>>> > > > the very structure of governance that subjugates 99% of the
>>>>>>>> planet's
>>>>>>>> > > > population, i.e. the hierarchical organization, is designed on
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> > > > principle
>>>>>>>> > > > of divide and conquer.
>>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > At the very root of the p2p movement is the idea that unpaid
>>>>>>>> cooperation
>>>>>>>> > > is
>>>>>>>> > > > rewarded. If we ignore this idea, as I had done with the P2P
>>>>>>>> Energy
>>>>>>>> > > > Economy,
>>>>>>>> > > > we lose our moral basis in this debate.
>>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > The only viable incentive is the common good.
>>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > Thanks for bringing it up.
>>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > Marc
>>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 10:10 AM, Patrick Anderson <
>>>>>>>> agnucius at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> > > > >wrote:
>>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > Marc,
>>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > I sent this to p2p-research, but it bounced. I guess I need
>>>>>>>> to sign-up
>>>>>>>> > > > > again.
>>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > Could you give me your rough take on my questions at the
>>>>>>>> end?
>>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > Thanks,
>>>>>>>> > > > > Patrick
>>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 3:02 PM, marc fawzi <
>>>>>>>> marc.fawzi at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> > > > wrote:
>>>>>>>> > > > > > /. wrote:
>>>>>>>> > > > > >> "Symmetric, 100 Mbps service in Stockholm costs $11/month
>>>>>>>> [in
>>>>>>>> > > > > Stockholm.]
>>>>>>>> > > > > >> Conditions in every city are different, but part of the
>>>>>>>> explanation
>>>>>>>> > > > for
>>>>>>>> > > > > the
>>>>>>>> > > > > >> low cost is that the city owns a municipal fiber network
>>>>>>>> reaching
>>>>>>>> > > > every
>>>>>>>> > > > > >> block. They lease network access to anyone who would like
>>>>>>>> to offer
>>>>>>>> > > > > service.
>>>>>>>> > > > > >> The ISPs, including incumbent telephone and cable
>>>>>>>> companies, compete
>>>>>>>> > > > on
>>>>>>>> > > > > an
>>>>>>>> > > > > >> equal footing."
>>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > If the customers are paying $11/month the ISPs are taking a
>>>>>>>> profit,
>>>>>>>> > > > > then it *could* be even cheaper.
>>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > Right?
>>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > I mean, if the WE (any group with any need) knew how to
>>>>>>>> share, then
>>>>>>>> > > > > the WE could pool their resources to lease the line and then
>>>>>>>> share the
>>>>>>>> > > > > benefits at cost. Right?
>>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > And if the WE were even more aggressive, the WE could even
>>>>>>>> purchase
>>>>>>>> > > > > and *own* the Material Means of Production (the physical
>>>>>>>> network in
>>>>>>>> > > > > this case).
>>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > Now the ./ article seems to imply that the WE (in Sweden)
>>>>>>>> own those
>>>>>>>> > > > lines.
>>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > But that is not quite true because the supposed WE (the city
>>>>>>>> in this
>>>>>>>> > > > > case) will not lease the line directly to customers, but
>>>>>>>> instead
>>>>>>>> > > > > require for-profit corporations become the "middle-men" -
>>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>>> > > > > control and value (profit) away from the customers.
>>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > There are more administrative costs if THEY (the city
>>>>>>>> government) were
>>>>>>>> > > > > also the ISP layer.
>>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > And the semi-valid argument against such a move is that it
>>>>>>>> creates
>>>>>>>> > > > > centralized State Socialism.
>>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > The reason that argument has some validity is because almost
>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>> > > > > governments are currently under the direction of Capitalist
>>>>>>>> (profit
>>>>>>>> > > > > maximizing and therefore scarcity maximizing) corporations.
>>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > ....
>>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > So we won't be able Govern ourselves effectively until we
>>>>>>>> have control
>>>>>>>> > > > > of Production.
>>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > But we can't control Production (can't organize effectively)
>>>>>>>> until we
>>>>>>>> > > > > discover how to share the Material Means of Production.
>>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > And sharing Physical Sources for the purpose of maximizing
>>>>>>>> freedom and
>>>>>>>> > > > > (secondarily) utilization means we must know how to
>>>>>>>> self-Govern.
>>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > So it seems we may be at an impasse.
>>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > We can't change our current governments directly (voting is
>>>>>>>> theater)
>>>>>>>> > > > > because they are controlled by Capitalist Corporations.
>>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > And we can't change how we create *new* Corporations because
>>>>>>>> we do not
>>>>>>>> > > > > yet know precisely what is wrong with the current entities.
>>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > I mean, sure they're 'evil'. But what causes them to be
>>>>>>>> such bullies?
>>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > Is there any chance it is a structure that rewards scarcity?
>>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > If so, then where is the root of that reward?
>>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > Is profit related to scarcity? If so, then what shall be
>>>>>>>> done with it?
>>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > Patrick
>>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > --
>>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > Marc Fawzi
>>>>>>>> > > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>>>>>>>> > > > LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > [2 text/html]
>>>>>>>> > > > _________________________________
>>>>>>>> > > > Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/
>>>>>>>> > > > Organization: http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/
>>>>>>>> > > > Contact: projekt at oekonux.de
>>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>> > > --
>>>>>>>> > > Alex
>>>>>>>> > > I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only make them think.-
>>>>>>>> Socrates
>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>> > > [2 text/html]
>>>>>>>> > > _________________________________
>>>>>>>> > > Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/
>>>>>>>> > > Organization: http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/
>>>>>>>> > > Contact: projekt at oekonux.de
>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > --
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Marc Fawzi
>>>>>>>> > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>>>>>>>> > LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > [2 text/html]
>>>>>>>> > _________________________________
>>>>>>>> > Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/
>>>>>>>> > Organization: http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/
>>>>>>>> > Contact: projekt at oekonux.de
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Alex
>>>>>>>> I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only make them think.-
>>>>>>>> Socrates
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Norie Huddle
>>>>>>>> noriehuddle at mac.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Kevin Carson
>>>>>>>> Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org
>>>>>>>> Mutualist Blog: Free Market Anti-Capitalism
>>>>>>>> http://mutualist.blogspot.com
>>>>>>>> Studies in Mutualist Political Economy
>>>>>>>> http://www.mutualist.org/id47.html
>>>>>>>> Organization Theory: A Libertarian Perspective
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/12/studies-in-anarchist-theory-of.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University-
>>>>>>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>>>>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>>>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>>>>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>>>>>>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Norie Huddle
>>>>>>>> noriehuddle at mac.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>>>>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>>>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>>>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>>>>>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Norie Huddle
>>>>>>> noriehuddle at mac.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>>>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>>>>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Norie Huddle
>>>>>> noriehuddle at mac.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>>
>>>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>>>>
>>>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>>>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Norie Huddle
>>>>> noriehuddle at mac.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>
>>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>>>
>>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>>>
>>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Norie Huddle
>>>> noriehuddle at mac.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>
>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>> http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>>
>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>>
>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>>
>>>
>>> Norie Huddle
>>> noriehuddle at mac.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>> http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>
>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>
>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>
>>
>> Norie Huddle
>> noriehuddle at mac.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>
> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
> http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>
> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>
> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
> http://www.shiftn.com/
>
>
> Norie Huddle
> noriehuddle at mac.com
>
>
>
>
>
--
Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
http://www.shiftn.com/
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